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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Brumar89 who wrote (28336)	12/5/1999 5:58:00 PM
From: Jamey	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

If by the other side of the religious divide, you mean that you will also post what Luther and Calvin accomplished through the Protestant Reformation. Luther is well known as the greatest man of all the Ages next to Jesus and Paul. It can easily be said that he changed the whole course of Church history and I have never heard in all my life any one that would have the audacity to attack this Saint. Calvin had an academy in Geneva that attracted many well know scholars from all over the land. He was another important contributor to the Reformation. Bruce, I don't quite know where you are coming from as you seem to want to tear down every positive post that I make concerning Protestantnism, Calvinism, the Reformation, Predestination and Saints of the early Church. I am short on time or I would have covered Martin Luther in more detail. I wished that you would reconsider some of the detrimental unauthenticated statements that you are making about these very important Christians. Santiago

To: Brumar89 who wrote (28336)	12/5/1999 6:43:00 PM
From: Brumar89	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Continuing (finally) - on the other side of the Calvinist - Arminian divide, among figures like Pelagius, Erasmus, Arminius, John Wesley - I've been unable to find anyone with blood on their hands. The best documented figure on this side of Christianity that I've found was John Wesley. Wesley was one of the greatest evangelists of all time. He was an Arminian theologically and a rhetorical opponent of Calvinism. In addition to justification by faith, he taught a concept of "means of grace" which were a result of salvation. These means of grace included Bible study, prayer, fellowship, and acts of compassion. Wesley and those influenced by his teachings and sermons became the backbone of the anti-slavery movement, the temperance movement, founded the Salvation Army, and provided an immense amount of aid to the poor via soup kitchens, education, health care, moral exhortation, etc. While learning about and reflecting on the figures of Calvin and Wesley as standard bearers of Calvinism and Arminianism, respectively, I couldn't help but recall Jesus's statement that by their fruit shall you know them. It's sort of ironic that conversations with Calvinists on line have caused me to learn things about Arminiamism and Wesleyanism that I never realized and have resulted in an appreciation of and admiration for those spiritual movements that I probably would not have developed otherwise.