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Pastimes : Jesus -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: monu who wrote (3546)12/29/1999 12:00:00 PM
From: Jamey  Respond to of 4775
 
Not an answer to your question but I just felt like saying, "I don't know what the future holds but I know who holds the future."

Of course I am still very prone to asking God for things like a child but I at least qualify it with, "If it be your will, Lord." God says that he is going to make our future more wonderous then even what we pray for.

Romans 8:
"30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall bring a charge against God?s elect? It is God who justifies."

Regards,

Santiago



To: monu who wrote (3546)12/29/1999 12:41:00 PM
From: C Kahn  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 4775
 
monu, I believe that Jesus died for us all. When He was hanging on the cross, I don't think He was thinking; "OK, I'm shedding my blood for Bill, Bob, Sue and Jane. But not for Jim, Sam, Linda or Jenny. I think He died so that all should have everlasting life and not perish. And I do believe in the Divine Intervention of prayer. Yes, that person may still drive off a cliff. But if prayers have been sent up, I feel that warning signs, flashing lights a even barrier fences have been put up along the way, to give them every possible chance to slow down, stop, turn around and go away from the cliff. I know that my views are simple. But this is how I see it, very clearly, plain and simple.
I hope I have been of help to you.

C Kahn



To: monu who wrote (3546)12/30/1999 3:39:00 AM
From: Berry Picker  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 4775
 
I have not yet answered you on the Lord's Day being the First Day...

I can also tell you about Ezekiel.

I am glad you asked. I will get back to you on that.. Look however at Chapter 34.. concerning the "Shephard" (King) of David.
There has been no "Davidic King" from the ending of it by Nebuchadnezzar before the destruction of temple in 588 B.C.

Also very difficult verse for full preterists because it speaks of that Davidic King ruling a righteous Israel "IN THE LAND" on earth....
You need to tell me which interests you more the Change of the Sabbath to Sunday or the understanding of Ezekiel so I can do it first.

I however have chosen to answer your Heart Inquiry right now as it is late and I have not time for both.

RE>>): I am curious as to how you (or "predestination" believers) pray for someone who isn't saved or is apparently backslidden (I know, I know... if he isn't predestined, then he can't really be backslidden). <<

Wrong... truly saved people can be very backslidden! Just look at King David. He is a plain example of a man who turned his back on God and served his flesh after being saved and anointed. He became lazy and stayed home no longer going to war with the troops and Urriah's attitude surely pierced his cold heart. He was not about God's business so he was about monkey ( satan's ) business. Yet even when God killed his illegitimate we see David so confident of his election that he knew the child went to heaven:

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

God judged David for his very evil sin. God sent a prophet to trick David into passing judgement upon himself..

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

The sword never left David's Home after he had killed righteous Urriah and stolen his beautiful wife.

Absalom, another son David loved, rose up in armed rebellion to try and take the throne from David further judgement for Davids turning on his most faithful servant Urriah.

God chastises ( Spanks ) those whom he has Chosen to Love. Paul clearly states that if a man says he is saved and yet God does not do anything when that man sins then that man is not really saved.

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If you can get away with sin then God is not your Father the devil is ! Don't experiment however that is to tempt God we all have enough sin.

Often one who is saved and in sin need true friends like the prophet sent to David to pray against them and pray for God to punish them for their sin that they may return in repentance. That is not an unkind thing to do. Just as a surgeon may take the leg to save the body we can pray for God to take the body to save the soul.

1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Those who believe that men "will" themselves in and out of the Kingdom could never have the confidence to turn someone over to satan... what if they never came back :-}

Men who know the truth and yet chose to sin do not need to see anything other than Judgement here and now to frustrate their way.. God does however remind and renew to them His love even often before they repent..

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

In Revelations when evil men are judged they blaspheme God even more. Those who are saved have the spiritual gift to bow the knee and beg for forgiveness.

Prayer is not what many think it is.

Jesus plainly states that vain repetition does nothing.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Jesus does teach however that persistence in prayer is effectual in the parable of the Unjust Judge. God however does not wear down and give in but rather blesses the one who prays by "involving" him in God's special doings.

Prayer is requesting according to our need not greed but it is intimate relation with the Lord. Look what God said concerning Abraham:

17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

This is one of the Blessing Abraham was Granted ... to know what God was going to do. Yet " All the Blessings" of Abraham are continued to those who are under Christ.

Galatians 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

That Blessing is to truly know God. God reveals His will to those who pray through prayer. That is the Blessing many miss who are weak in prayer.

RE>>Maybe it's me, but something is lost in my prayer if for any moment I feel God MAY NOT desire the best (Him) for EVERY individual.<<

I believe that if most people were honest about their prayers when they talk theology they would admit that they do not believe God respects the will of Man.

Here is a mock-up of the prayer of the man who truly believes that God prepared the Way and it is up to each individual to choose in their flesh so they can get the spirit:

I do not intend to mock God with this pretend prayer....

Dear gOD... you know how much I love my neighbour and how I would like to see him saved. I know you have done everything you can and that it is really up to him to choose. I wish that you could do something but then you would be coming against the precious gift of "freedom you gave" all men... So I guess that without crossing the line or taking off your handcuffs you can do nothing more..so I don't know why I bother to pray I should be trying to convince my neighbour into making right choices in his dead and sinful flesh instead!

=== Now that is not fatalism but utterly fatal! ===

No even those foolish Christians who are indeed saved and yet in theology serve the "Human gOD" when they pray they go like this...

Oh God in heaven who created all things by the mere Word of thy mouth. Who indeed can turn the heart of the king. Come against the wicked one in the life of my neighbour. Dry up all the pleasures of sin in his life and plague him with the darkness of it. Give to him a spirit of repentance and cause him to see the light of your gospel and the sweetness of the gift of your own precious Son Jesus at the cross. Give him no peace until he comes to you in true repentance.

How is that Fatalism? We pray to a mighty God expecting God to answer.
He may say NO!

I think your comment concerning even the Prayer of Christ as a Man in the Garden tells it all. Unfortunately sinful flesh does not like what it tells.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine
===========================================================
I want for a brief moment to tell you a story that was told to me.

There was a pastor who had a fellow come to him and ask what to do... " I am so worried I have prayed and prayed for my father and nothing seems to happen and I am getting really worried that he may not be saved."

The Pastor asked... "Is you mother alive or saved ? "

The fellow said "My mother is alive but she is not saved either."

" Do you pray also for you mother " the preacher asked.

" Well sometimes but not that often but, don't get me wrong, I do love her very very much "

Then the preacher sadly answer "Pray for them both but worry for your mother"

============================================================

I used to really struggle with the fact that God alone has the right and privilege of Saving whom He will and Damning whom He will.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

It sounds good on paper and then you see it in reality and it causes us to sometimes grieve over those who are perishing with whom we have grown affections.

Jesus told us not to love the World. We are called to be seperate from those who are not saved. We cannot call them brothers except they repent.

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

I really struggle with the thought that God may not save all of my children. After all Jacob and Esau were twins born into a covenant family yet God hated Esau before he was born and it was not based on anything Esau would do good or evil that God's Election would stand.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I finally had to bow my knee to that as well... Simply because I love them does not mean God does.

I grew from that to see that it is no shock that God hated Esau.

The shock was that God chose to love Jacob...
He was so evil, yet God made him Israel.

They were "Twins" ( same lump of clay ) same parents ( psychology )Esau was the most loved by his father and Jacob was second place. Esau was the oldest and had "lawful right" to be dedicated to the Lord. Yet it was Jacob who was granted grace in spite of Himself based solely on God's choice of Election.

In the end Jacob became the nicer of the two as Esau became bitter and hateful without God's grace....

God has chosen to call us to pray for one another.. That is after being saved. We also pray that God bless our efforts in finding the elect. God's word does what God intends. It will either harden carnal men or soften and call the elect.

I can pray for God to save men without insisting God always answer YES.

Jesus taught by example we are to pray... THY WILL BE DONE

I have grown to love God's Hate as well as His love.

When I first found out that God hated people and they could not change that no matter what they did ( They will not do don't worry ) I hated God. He still loved me though.

I found myself in this situation.....

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Jesus turned away many who had Made a "decision" to follow Him.

They upon hearing those words examined themselves and realized that the Father above had not called them.
I realized that God the Father had called me but I was furious that God was so "unfair" and that He had to love everyone cause He made them. However I knew I could not change God!

John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

I could go to hell in protest but who would praise me and who would be hurt?

Then I became even as these:

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

I was beyond denying what God had shown me and that it was He who called me. He was and is the only way to be saved...

======= Lord, to whom shall we go? =======

Once you find the true God of Scripture your prayers become much more effective.

Praying through a false image of God slow things up.

Let me From the Heart tell you this... As a Christian I have prayed many prayers that I knew had " bounced off the ceiling".
Sometimes when you pray them even others can "feel it"

However there are other time when the Spirit of God just prays through you and you KNOW IT WILL BE ANSWERED because it was not you that prayed. It becomes a sharing from God on what He will do. I was blessed with one of those this very Sunday. I was to pray first and then a young fellow who just became an elder. God just powered through me so much so that the other fellow said

" What can I pray after that ! "

We all knew God has spoken to us through the use of prayer.

=== Thy will be done on earth even as it is in Heaven ===

That is the bottom line...not my will but thine....

P.S.The prince in Ezek 45:22 is not the same as the one in 34.

That is an earthly prince who would rule Israel according to God's Laws after It was restored in 516 B.C.

It may have referred to Zerubbabel who Reigned after the 70 Year captivity and the destruction of Israel and the Temple in Judah in 588-86 B.C. I do not think we can exact that King only or specifically from the Scriptures but He is not as the same King as Chapter 34 after the Davidic lineage. Also that King would have to serve while Israel was in a Righteous "mode" being returned from the Captivity and "Spirit Filled" but prior to Christ because of the Sacrificial/ Ceremonial Laws that Ezekiel added to the Mosaic Covenant being offered by that king. I can think of none other that Zerubbabel for the sacrifice was to be immediately offered upon restoring the Temple and He would have been that King. I am 99% sure but not 100% not critical really. The one to see is the King in 34.

Got to get some sleep see ya.



To: monu who wrote (3546)1/3/2000 2:46:00 AM
From: Berry Picker  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 4775
 
Ezekiel - The Historical Setting
=======================

As I pointed out in my previous post the thing I found (and still find) confusing about the scriptures is the manner in which the compilers "Ordered" the various books into "Categories" rather than Chronology.
You have asked specifically about Ezek 41-48. I would point out that you have come very close to dividing a section of the work exactly where most scholars do.
First the roughest division is into three main parts.

1. Ezek Chp 1-24 - The pending doom of Jerusalem ( Spiritually called Sodom )
===========================================================

Ezekiel is not the only Prophet to use this type of symbolism even Jesus.

Jeremiah 23:14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

2. Ezek Chp 25-32 - Prophecies against foreign Nations.
==========================================
Ezek 25:2 Son of man, set thy face against the Ammonites, and prophesy against them;
Ezek 25:3 And say unto the Ammonites, Hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou saidst, Aha, against my sanctuary, when it was profaned; and against the land of Israel, when it was desolate; and against the house of Judah, when they went into captivity;

This creates an interesting Pattern when we consider that God used wicked nations to Judge Judah and then poured out wrath upon those very nations for attacking His beloved city Jerusalem.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

That last line is very key in understanding into the future beyond today and the 2nd Coming of the Lord.

Also if you study what God did when He destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem even more devastatingly in 70 AD .. GOD then also turned and Judged Rome afterward ( Rome Burned )
However Wicked Rome was "resurrected" in the Unholy Roman Church.

Now what I want to point out is that the Full Preterist View is that "all of Ezekiel " was fulfilled at that time. { I do not subscribe to that view but some are trying to convince me :-}
They believe that there is no significance for anything beyond the Rebuilding of the Temple after the "70 Years" of captivity prophesied by Jeremiah concerning the Agricultural Sabbath Breaking of Israel for 490 years. Jeremiah prophesied the exact number of years that the captivity would last according to how many years Israel had forsaken the Sabbatical rest due the Land:

Exodus 23: 10 And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
Exodus 23:11 But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.

God ordained for the Land to rest from the Jews for all the years they had skipped the Agricultural Sabbath. Even 490 years divided by 7 = 70 years of Captivity for the Jews and "rest" for the land.

Jeremiah 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

Interestingly Jeremiah Prophesied the Destruction of Jerusalem 40 years before the Destruction.
Jesus Prophesied the same exactly 40 years before the Destruction.

Look at Jesus talking about forgiveness!
Jesus points to the forgiveness of God toward Israel , more guilty than Sodom and Gomorrah, yet brought back and restored and used those very numbers 70X7.

Monu These are not accidents. God who foreordains everything that happens good or evil leave distinct signatures for His elect to see and understand. Look even at Daniel confessing that very thing.

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign [BV - King Darius ] I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Even Daniel a great prophet himself learns how long the captivity will last from Jeremiah instead of direct revelation. We are not called to ask God for direct revelation but to seek it from His Holy Word as already revealed.

3. Ezek Chp 33-48 - Post Destruction promises of Revival and Restoration.
=======================================================

This is the 3rd main section and deals with the rebuilding of the Temple which occurs under Zerubbabel
and the Revival which happens under Ezra. Zerubabbel lead 50 thousand Jews back out of the captivity to Jerusalem?s ruins to rebuild the Temple 70 years after the first group were taken into captivity. Both Daniel and Ezekiel where taken into Babylon under the "surrender" by Zedekiah.
What occurs to Israel was after God broke the Kingdom in two. Israel - Judah ( South ) after Solomon?s death 931 BC Then in 722 when the Assyrians Conquered the World Israel was Conquered but Judah was spared along with the Beloved City - Jerusalem.

However in 608 or 605 BC ( Somewhere in there ) King Zedekiah of Judah "surrendered" to Nebuchadnezzar upon the advice of one of God?s Prophets but I can?t remember who. I know they almost killed Jeremiah for Prophesying against Jerusalem and King Jehoiakim did kill Uziah for the exact same prophecies. It is supposed ( Cannot be proven ) that Isaiah was martyred by Manasseh in 680 BC for the same prophecies.

Zedekiah , King of Judah, although he escaped destruction by surrendering later did bring on that Destruction by making covenants with Egypt and Assyria to overthrow Nebuchadnezzar.

That is the part that is confusing I think ? Most people think the Captivity started after the destruction.
Seems to make sense. War, then destruction , then captivity, but not !

1. Hezekiah surrendered and made covenants of servitude to Nebuchadnezzar. 608 BC
2. Nebuchadnezzar take some choice citizens ( these where the blessed one but no one thought so ) into captivity.
3. Hezekiah breaks his covenant and plans a revolt with other nations. Ezekiel prophesies against this saying that God will curse him for breaking covenant with the unsaved Babylonian Kingdom.
4. Babylon destroys and carries out the curses from God that Ezekiel prophesied and destroy the temple 588 BC
5. Ezekiel prophesies God?s forgiveness, rebuilding the temple, and later revival. Likely dies before seeing any or it just like Moses never entered into the "promised land".

Ezekiel was taken into Babylon during the second "captivity exile" when he was 25 years old. It is believe that he just as John the Baptist was raised within the Temple as a boy being the son of the High Priest.
Just a John the Baptist he is recognized by the people and then the corrupt priesthood seek out who he may be. He was called of God to be a Priest at the age of 30 already being in captivity. He foretold the destruction of the temple in 588 BC while Judah and Babylon were at "peace" Just like Israel and Rome were at "peace" when Jesus foretold of the destruction in 70 AD. Do you see the Pattern

Monu what occurs after the destruction is the key to the pattern for the future of Israel. Compare these verses.

Jeremiah 31 :35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jeremiah 31 :36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Compare with:

Romans 11: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

==== This is key to understanding what is going on with Ezekiel = PATTERN ====

You have asked about Chapters 41-48. I apologize if this post is confusing I am not very organized.
Chapters 40-48 are another division under the three main divisions.

Those chapters address The Restored State of Israel also a huge piece of the pattern.

1. The New Temple Chp 40:1 - Chp 43:12
2. Regulations for Worship Chp 43:13 - Chp 46:24
3. Israel again a Land of Blessing Chp 47:1 - Chp 48:35

To understand the "sacrificial ceremonial laws" being instituted by Ezekiel you need to see that it is not yet future. Ezekiel is an Ordained Priest of God and a Prophet. ( Like Jesus ) Ezekiel is not however a king nor did his prophecies deal with government but with church. Daniel was ordained a prophet to be in the King?s house and to foretell the future concerning Governments even that of the King of Kings. They both lived at the same time in the exile but they dealt with completely different Authorities State - Church. Ezekiel does see Jesus as King and speaks about Kings Chp 34 & 37 even as Colleen pointed out.

Ezek 1: 3 The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him.

The king you ask about is neither Jesus ( except by pattern or type ) I doubt he is Zerubbabel because the revival does not happen until well after Israel is established in the flesh. In 458 BC Ezra returns to Israel with less than 2000 Jews from the captivity. Nehemiah came after that in 445 BC and rebuilds the city. Malachi brings about much reform under his ministry in 433 BC and rebukes against robbing God and the Sabbaths are re-instituted where all this judgement started. Israel is rebuilt carnally first and spiritually second.

Ezek 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

Ezek 37: 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

Ezek 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

You see monu what God showed to Ezekiel in this vision was the " Bones " of dead Israel and Jerusalem.
God first put the Flesh back on the bones but they had no "Breath" ( Spirit ) That happened in 536 BC and 1948 AD. The rebuilding of the Temple 536 BC and the return of Israel as a Nation 1948 AD.

God sent such a revival to His people under Ezra that they suffer the worst and most stringent repentance I have ever heard of. It was so powerful that Gods says of that time there was no one left to witness to.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Well Later got to go to bed? Hope this helps I?m too tired to read it and see if it makes sense so up she goes.

I need to tell you about Kings and why God ordained for them to be in His creation.
That would help I think.