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Pastimes : Don't Ask Rambi -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Rambi who wrote (46421)	2/3/2000 2:49:00 PM
From: Gordon A. Langston	Respond to of 71178

South Carolina and others that have fond feelings for the confederate flag could as you say be more private about this. They could compensate in a more outward way by flying the State Flag and not flying the U.S. Flag.

To: Rambi who wrote (46421)	2/3/2000 11:30:00 PM
From: JF Quinnelly	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 71178

Penni, if it weren't for the hate campaign being orchestrated by the usual crowd of thought police this wouldn't be an issue at all. That flag has been there since 1962. When would you object to their censorship efforts? When they start banning history books they don't like? When they tell you what heroes you are permitted to have? Are the limits of freedom whatever they disapprove of? Should we just ban whatever they don't like? What measure are you using? I'm not a smart lawyer like Coby, so you'll have to tell me what is permitted in the land of the free. Here in California the haters rally to burn rebel flags, in the name of diversity and compassion of course. Well, it's their property, they can burn them if they like. But why should everyone else have to get their permission to display what they are free to burn?

To: Rambi who wrote (46421)	2/4/2000 12:08:00 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 71178

The point was only that the Confederate flag, whatever it means to you personally, means other things to other people, and some of it's ugly. That's the key, of course. But the problem is, am I not to be allowed to appreciate symbols that are important to me because they may offend other people? Virtually every symbol which has substantive intrinsic meaning is offensive to somebody. The American Flag itself is offensive to some people. It can be taken to represent the internment of Japanese, the enslavement of Blacks, the crushing of religious liberty [Waco] etc. Should we decide not to fly it because it offends some people? I personally have no feelings about the Confederate battle flag (though from a legal standpoint I think the North was legally wrong and unjustified to wage the Civil War, so in some sense the Confederate flag stands for the core principles of the Declaration of Independence and the American flag stands against them). But more important to me is the principle of freedom of speech. The flag is a form of speech. To demand that it not be flown is an act of censorship. Yes, it is offensive to some. Yes, it is hateful to some. But if we believe in the first amendment, even those who detest it have to agree to guarantee the right to fly it in order to protect their right to fly flags or exhibit banners that put forth things they believe in that others find detestable. It comes back to the basic problem of free speech: it can be used in hurtful ways. And you simply have to take your position: is the answer to hurtful speech censorship? Or should even hurtful speech be protected and countered with speech that shows its hurt and makes people voluntarily abandon it? Not only am I philosophically opposed to censorship, I also recognize that it simply doesn't work. The banning in Germany of perhaps the most hate-filled symbol in history hasn't prevented the rise of neo-Nazism -- in fact, it may have encouraged it by making it more exciting to those who revel in anti-authoritarianism. Look at Austria, where they are today inducting six cabinet members from the Freedom Party -- would this party have as much support if they didn't have the excitement of being a partly censored? It is hard to get people to understand that censoring the Confederate flag is a step toward censoring their own symbols. But it is true, dangerously true. I only wish those who are so anxious to censor could see this. And once again I will recommend what I believe it the most impressive book on this whole subject -- Nat Hentoff's Free Speech for Me but Not for Thee. I don't think anybody can read this book and come away unchanged.