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To: JF Quinnelly who wrote (46446)2/4/2000 12:49:00 AM
From: epicure  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 71178
 
You know- organizing people to eliminate a symbol a majority of people decide is hateful is democracy. I agree with you that society can be weird about what it decides is hateful- although the South did LOSE and losers are usually reviled- imo the South came off pretty lightly as far as losers go (historically speaking).

I suppose political correctness is really democracy in action. There is an obvious tension between real democracy (or rule of the majority, or the majority who wish to express an opinion) and freedom of expression- but YOU, as an individual have a right to do whatever you want with your confederate flag- Waive it around- no one is stopping you. And other people have EVERY right to revile you for waiving it. That's democracy right? And you can waive it, just as they can burn it. Society decides who to punish- just as society has always decided to reward some and punish others. The majority can decide they don't want it on public buildings. That seems ok to me.

In the 50's if you had black friends over to your white suburban house the neighbors would have looked at you funny - and in the South you might have been a "you know what" lover- so you would have been punished for being tolerant. Today if you put the confederate flag outside your home- people may look at you funny- they may call you a bigot- but what they are trying to express is their notion that the Southern flag stands for intolerance. At least people are TRYING to repudiate the right thing now.

You can argue they are going after the wrong symbol- but you cannot argue they are going against the wrong emotion- people THINK they are going against hatred. And that's got to be better than the way is used to be. I hope in the future it will be better still.



To: JF Quinnelly who wrote (46446)2/4/2000 9:50:00 AM
From: Rambi  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 71178
 
Good morning, Amicus,

By "there", I take it we're no longer talking about mutable symbols in general, which I thought was an interesting topic, but the specific issue of SC, which is going to take us into the area of law where I'm not very knowledgeable?

This will probably irritate you, but I think you've taken the initial discussion and moved it into the areas that are your own personal, extremely hot spots. That's a killer for discourse. Even though I often agree with you on personal freedoms, censorship, immigration and I despise PC, for ME, angry, accusatory response is self-defeating and alienating, especially in a place where people are overall interested in each others' opinions, and considerate disagreement, and are people of good will. When that goes, any possibility for mutual understanding goes. So I tend to be pretty passive, but I'm not a hatemonger, and it doesn't mean I agree if I don't loudly disagree.

Back to your question--I guess I'm not sure why the flag being there since 1962 is relevant. IN fact, if that's the date it was raised---well, it seems to me it might have been a statement against Civil Rights, and would lend credence to the interpretation of it as a symbol of separatism. I'm surprised it lasted that long without being removed completely, aren't you? Why did they raise it in 1962? Now THAT is interesting to me!

Would this be the same issue as crèches on public grounds?
Am I wrong in separating what can be done on your own property from what is permissable on public property? If they tell me I can't fly my Christmas dove from my front porch, then I think they violate my freedom. I don't feel the same about what flies over the Capitol.
I don't think they have the right to limit MY freedoms. But I do think it's reasonable to keep controversial symbols off public property.

Does that qualify as enough for "my measure"?

As for burning the COnfederate flag-- that just doesn't make my blood pressure move at all. People burned the American flag and I thought it was stupid, but their right. Paying attention to people who do silly things, or arguing with irrational people is useless and plays right into their hands.

Could you be confusing higher levels of tolerance, or different personality types, as agreement with some of these PC stances? Does it appear that CR or Cobe or I agree because we don't draw the same lines? Please don't turn us into hatemongers becuase of that.

ANd you know I hate revisionist history, although I remember a college prefessor saying that essentially all history was colored by the opinions and allegiances of those who recorded it.

I respect your opinions and your reasoning and your incredible knowledge of history, and hope that you'll keep providing that input and not let your gift for sarcasm and your frustration with those of us who lack your background get in the way of talking to each other.

(CObe IS a smart lawyer, aren't we lucky? We have her AND X)



To: JF Quinnelly who wrote (46446)2/4/2000 11:57:00 AM
From: Crocodile  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 71178
 
Well, I wasn't going to wade into the flag discussion, but I actually have an interest, not so much in this particular issue, but in the larger field of symbolism, PC, etc... I probably have a slightly different view because the Confederate flag holds almost no meaning for me. The only time I see one is in the back window of a 4x4 pickup truck or as a sticker on the back of an old beater of a Monte Carlo... usually one with a giant NO FEAR decal across the back window.. In these instances, I can only read the flag as a symbol of devil-may-care rebelliousness.

However, I have an opinion on this issue... which may come as something of a surprise... (What!! Croc has an opinion on something??!! Quick, run outside to see if the sky is falling!!)

We are not without our own "flag issue" up here in the Frozen Wastelands. In most of Canada, flying the maple leaf is an act of pride and patriotism. However, in recent years, flying of the same flag in Quebec is increasingly (and unfortunately) regarded as an unofficial Act of Defiance. Whereas, in most parts of Canada, provincial flags are flown below or next to the Canadian flag, particularly on public buildings, in Quebec, the Canadian flag is often absent or flown in a position of obvious subordination to Quebec's provincial flag, the Fleur-de-Lys (a blue flag with white fleur symbols which were once the emblem of the royal family in France). In Ontario and other parts of Canada, we are occasionally seeing Fleur-de-Lys flags being flown in the yards of private residences.

I probably don't have to tell you that there is a lot of "loaded symbolism" occurring through the act of flying these particular flags in specific places and by certain individuals or institutions as in the above examples. As a "symbolic object", flags customarily attract a great deal of attention as people try to "read" the meaning of what it is meant to communicate. That is why flags are such powerful objects, and also explains why various groups often appropriate them for their own subversive purposes.

I understand your anger and annoyance over the misreading of the meaning, or more accurately, the multiplicity of meanings of the Confederate flag. However, the "problem" is not solely caused by the PC group that appears to hate the flag, but more importantly, by the appropriation of the "symbolic meaning" of the flag by the KKK and other similar organizations. The big problem, as I see it, is in preserving or restoring a symbol to its original meaning. This is JMDO, but destruction of a "symbolically loaded object", rarely accomplishes anything other than allowing the group which has subverted its meaning to claim a victory of sorts.... and so, Fred, you will see that I am in some agreement with you.

However, as I see it, there is a problem in trying to reclaim the original meaning of an object, especially one that has come to have very volatile and unsavory associations attached to it over time...the swastika being an excellent example.

It is true that sometimes it is possible to reclaim the meaning of an object. We need an example for this so let's go with bean-shaved heads, military boots, camouflage clothing, and tattoos. When we look at that "list", there are two ways of "reading" it. To some people those words create the image of a military person... probably a Marine... but to other people, the image that comes to mind will immediately be that of a skinhead. Undoubtedly, many war veterans are upset and annoyed when they see skinheads marching around in camis and military boots with their heads shaved like beans... But what the hell can they do about it? We live in democratic countries which allow a wide range of personal freedom in the form of speech, action, clothing, and the raising of flags or display of other symbolic objects. We can try to ban these "symbols", but it doesn't really accomplish much because the offenders will, no doubt, just go on to subvert some other image.... who knows... maybe soon they'll start dressing like Wall Street execs... ;-}>

About the only thing that really works is to make a symbol become incredibly uncool. That usually happens when it becomes popularized in some way by the masses, or when it begins to be counter-subverted by a group with opposing views... As in the case of the young people who began to shave their heads, wear Doc Martins and camis, but who are everything the skinheads are not. They have quite effectively stolen the power of the symbolism which the skinheads in turn appropriated from the mainstream military.

I don't have an answer to the "flag problem". Obviously, in "our time", some symbols are extremely painful for some groups of people to look upon and it seems only courteous not to wave the offending object in their faces... just as it might not be such a good idea to walk out into a pen full of bulls wearing a red cape even if you have purely honorable intentions and your name is Superman... Personally, I'm against the banning or restriction of symbolic objects as I see no useful purpose in doing so. I don't care what the object is...whether it is a cross, a flag, a piece of clothing, or a hairstyle. Every object can be made "unacceptable" to someone by flipping it upside down, setting it on fire, cutting it apart, placing it in an inappropriate location, or using it in some unexpected way. Such is the nature of subversiveness and there is little than can be done to stop it.

And as I have said above, the banning or destruction of a symbol is rarely effective as a means of re-appropriating its meaning. I believe that "time" may be the best, or perhaps only restorer of all. Over time, most symbols gradually lose or disperse their power, or possibly return to the meaning of their origins. The survival of a symbol is totally dependent upon those to whom it holds meaning... If they want it to survive, they will preserve its meaning, and it will.