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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Daniel Schuh who wrote (75251)	2/26/2000 9:57:00 PM
From: jbe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Dan, I don't think anybody is denying that dogs have "programmed behaviors" (as do people), or that they are bred for them. What I thought folks here were objecting to was the notion that dogs (or other higher animals) are nothing but a bundle of "programmed behaviors," living machines totally incapable of reflection or conscious emotion. From the excerpts you cite from this second Atlantic article, I gather that the author does not share that antiquated point of view. I have a brother who is an animal behaviorist (and chairs the Pyschology Department at the University of Washington), and his wife is a vet. Their house has always been full of animals: from the expected dogs to the more unexpected ferret, who killed the children's favorite pet (the boa constrictor). Michael's specialty these days is birds: specifically, how birds learn bird song. (Young males chose a teacher, never their father, and apprentice with the teacher to learn a song repertoire.) Anyway, if this keeps up, I'll get Michael to weigh in! Joan

To: Daniel Schuh who wrote (75251)	2/26/2000 10:24:00 PM
From: jbe	Respond to of 108807

Speaking of neurotic dogs -- I had one. It was a collie, by name of Dante. One of my brothers and I had picked him out of a neighbor's litter, as teen-agers, and of course, we grew up and went away to college, leaving my parents stuck with him. Although Dante had never been fixed, he was a lovely dog, sweet-tempered, etc. He was especially good with babies, gently herding them away from dangerous objects. However, at some point in time -- he must have been at least six years old -- Dante developed a great dislike for mailmen and newspaper boys, for any delivery man, in short. He would start barking and snarling, and if he was let outside he would hurl himself at them, teeth bared, ready to bite. In one case, he did get his teeth into a newspaper boy; fortunately, no damage was done. The odd thing was that if a guest came to the door, Dante would greet him/her with tail wagging, cheerful leaps, & etc. We never could figure out how he knew who was on the other side of the door, friend or enemy. But he always knew. In any event, no amount of dog obedience training school helped. Once my parents really wanted to take a trip somewhere, and the problem was -- what to do with Dante? Eventually, they found a family, living on the beach, that was willing to take him for a month. The family was of course thoroughly briefed about Dante's neurosis. Well, one day the family -- husband, wife, kids, and Dante -- went for a stroll down the beach. Walking towards them was a gentleman clad only in a bathing suit. Suddenly, Dante went into full growl mode, raced towards the man, knocked him down, and prepared to take a chomp out of his leg...The day was saved by the father of the family, who rushed up just in time to pull Dante off the man. "I'm so sorry!" he told the man in the bathing suit. "We were told he only bites postmen!" The man stood up, brushed the sand off himself, and announced: "Well, I AM a postman!" Whaddya think about that! How did Dante know?? The story has a happy ending, though. My parents did not put Dante to sleep. They gave him away to a stud farm!! I do like to think of old Dante, finally, at the end of his life, tasting the joys of female (ahem) companionship! Joan P.S. And why was he named Dante? We took the cue from one of our teachers, who had a dog named Aristophanes. Many, many years later I married the teacher. We got a dog -- and named him Leo. What a come-down! <g> Leo, by the way, was afraid of thunder.

To: Daniel Schuh who wrote (75251)	2/27/2000 1:04:00 AM
From: nihil	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

That socialization to humans between 6 and 12 weeks is of utmost, absolute importance in wolves. Unless the cubs are raised in human families they will reconstitute a wolf pack (which has no place for people) whenever they can. A dog is just a wolf. Perhaps, as some genetic behaviorists have suggested, the acquired behaviors are expressed in DNA (either in the genes or junk) and are inherited. Obviously instincts are genetically expressed and transmitted. The instinct to chase a ball or vole, ingrained into (almost) every pup or cub must be transmitted genetically. The instinct to love a companion, which I believe in inherent in every dog or cub must be carried genetically too. Dominance relationships with companions is also, arguendo, transmitted genetically. No dog can be trained to be an equal with a man. He must dominate, or subordinate. Wolves have no experience in relating to human beings unless they have grown up with them and transferred their dominance relationship to their human families. If they have, they are perfectly safe. They can no more challenge a superior or injure a subordinate than man can fly to the moon (any more). wolf = dog. If you or anyone can find the strips of DNA in which dog behavior is differentiated from wolf behavior you will win the Nobel Prize. You see, dogs are simply physically, mentally, and morally challenged wolves. Wolves in every respect are superior to dogs. Of course, dogs are good enough for me. But I am sure that I would prefer to live with wolves -- either in their family or in mine. I am an excellent hunter. I can handle any single wolf. I can vomit on request. I can be alpha male wolf if I so choose.