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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Neocon who wrote (14808)3/10/2000 3:07:00 PM
From: Alexandermf  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769667
 
Neocon, I would reply with my post #14788 :-(



To: Neocon who wrote (14808)3/10/2000 3:27:00 PM
From: Alexandermf  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769667
 
Neocon, If our Leaders do not communicate with people from all walks of life how in the el' can they ever form valid opinions on anything????



To: Neocon who wrote (14808)3/10/2000 4:21:00 PM
From: jlallen  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769667
 
I can only attribute such bias to your dislike of his Christian associations.......

Or the fact that she is another liberal quack..... JLA



To: Neocon who wrote (14808)3/10/2000 10:54:00 PM
From: Jacques Chitte  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 769667
 
Calling E a bigot is really beyond the pale, Neocon, and a poor way to project your disagreement with her points. Let's examine them one at a time.

Did Bush Sr or did he not accept millions from the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, leader of one of the most totalitarian societies of the century and the man who comes to mind when the excesses of mind-control cults are remembered?

Did Bush Jr. or did he not entertain and satisfy Pat Robertson, whose quotes don't merely suggest, but utterly confirm his complete disregard for the Bill of Rights?

Does Bush Jr. retain Olansky, an inerrant-Bible proponent (which Bible, anyway?) as an "ethical consultant"?

If the answer to any of the above is "yes", then E should not be pilloried as a bigot merely to divert attention from these hard questions. I would go so far as to say that asking such questions is a civic duty for those of us who are intent upon defending a free republic and protect it from those who would abridge our rights in the interest of a dubious moral conformity!

Ceterum censeo that raising these points does not make a hater of Christians or of Christianity. Christians aren't the issue here - those who distort and exploit Christian doctrine and loyalties for the express purpose of amassing power are. Opposing such is not bigoted - it is brave.

You should apologize to E, who is showing not the stripes of a bigot but of a patriot.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.



To: Neocon who wrote (14808)3/10/2000 11:06:00 PM
From: E  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 769667
 
<<<Yes, you are a bigot. The mere fact that Bush had a casual association with Moon makes him a
"paid shill" in your eyes (Coretta Scott King spoke at a similar event. Does that make her a
"paid shill"?)>>>

A "casual association"?

This is why I described Bush pere as a paid shill for the Moonies:

George Bush made a paid appearance at a launch event in November of 1996 for Sun Myung Moon's Latin American version of The Washington Times, Tiempos Del Mundo. Moon was under pressure as a result of uncomplimentary press coverage highlighting his links to the South Korean CIA and his ties to neo-fascists in South America. Bush traveled to Buenos Aires and appeared as the keynote speaker at the Moon event. The Moonies were very happy with his speech. Here is a quote from the Moonie house organ, The Unification News. "We knew he would give an appropriate and nice speech, but praise in Father's presence was more than we expected... it was vindication... the day after, the press did a 180 degree about turn, once they realized that the event had the support of a U.S. President."

La Nacion reported after this event that Bush had claimed privately to the Prime Minister of Argentina, Menem, to be only a mercenary who didn't really know Moon. This is a quote from La Nacion, of Prime Minister Menem: "Bush told me he came and charged money to do it."

In September, 1995, George and Barbara gave six speeches in Asia for a Moonie front, the Women's Federation for World Peace, a group led by Moon's wife. These were all paid appearances, of course. He acknowleges that, though he has refused to divulge how much he has been paid.

In summer, 1996, Bush addressed the Moon-connected Family Federation for World Peace in Washington. (Bill Cosby was on the program, and tried to get out of it when he learned of Moon's connection, which got a lot of publicity.)

These are the appearances I've been able to find. They are enough, I think, to establish that Bush more than "had a casual association with Moon." The association went on for years, and he was paid for it. Estimates I have found are in the millions, and that wouldn't be surprising, given the wealth of the Unification Church, and what Bush's speaking for them offered. As I said, he won't say how much money he received for these services.

As I said, he was a paid shill for a terrible cause.

BTW, as a point of mild interest, Moon's theology asserts that "Christians who fail, or refuse to acknowledge, the Lord of the Second Advent (ie Moon), will be, like the Jews who failed to acknowledge or recognize Jesus as Messiah."

As for the Jews themselves, Moon's comments in his book say that the "ignorance," "disbelief," and "stubbornness" of the Jewish people placed them "on the side of Satan." In fact, the whole book is full of antisemitic comment.

Moon, btw, is, according to authority (himself) the second Messiah, sent by God because of Jesus's failure to procreate, having died before he could father any "sinless children." In his personal life, Moon has set about remedying this situation. He has fathered many sinless children. I was interested in the interview with one of Moon's daughters in law I saw on TV. She had fled the beatings and rage and drug addiction and alcoholism of her sinless husband.

Maybe Bush fils, in light of his experience at BJ University, will have learned a little about the value of distancing oneself from odious doctrines and practices. I wonder if he will distance himself from his mother and father's moneymaking activities on behalf of Jesus's successor, the outrageous Sun Myung Moon.

It is not I who is a bigot. It is not my fault that Bush has such connections with people who have made bigot-like comments, such as Pat Robertson and the Reverend Moon. It is not fair to call me names because I bring this to the attention of his admirers.

It can be hard to point out that the Emperor has no clothes when the desire to believe he does is so strong that pointing out the awkward facts will get you called names; so strong that what can only fairly be described as a years-long history of paid promotional appearances for a dreadful person and his sinister cause (he merely wants to control the world) is passed off as "a casual association." It was not casual to the Moonies, you may be sure. It was, to them, worth every million.

As to your question about Coretta Scott King: If she did it repeatedly, once she knew the nature of the outfit she was lending her prestige to, and received a lot of money for these repeated appearances, she sure is a paid shill. Of course! That's what a paid shill is, whether you are made unhappy by it or not. Did she do that?

You don't find W's lapses to be discomfiting, I do. That's fine. I also think they're funny. I guess you don't-- but not even these?:

"The most important job is not to be governor, or
first lady in my case."?Pella, Iowa, as quoted by
the San Antonio Express-News, Jan. 30, 2000

"Will the highways on the Internet become more
few?"?Concord, N.H., Jan. 29, 2000

"This is Preservation Month. I appreciate
preservation. It's what you do when you run for
president. You gotta preserve."?Speaking during
"Perseverance Month" at Fairgrounds Elementary
School in Nashua, N.H. As quoted in the Los
Angeles Times, Jan. 28, 2000

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your
family."?Greater Nashua, N.H., Chamber of
Commerce, Jan. 27, 2000

"The important question is, How many hands have
I shaked?"?Answering a question about why he
hasn't spent more time in New Hampshire, in the
New York Times, Oct. 23, 1999

"If the East Timorians decide to revolt, I'm sure I'll
have a statement."?Quoted by Maureen Dowd in
the New York Times, June 16, 1999

"It was just inebriating what Midland was all about
then."?From a 1994 interview, as quoted in First
Son, by Bill Minutaglio

"I don't have to accept their tenants. I was trying
to convince those college students to accept my
tenants. And I reject any labeling me because I
happened to go to the university."?Today, Feb.
23, 2000

"If you're sick and tired of the politics of cynicism
and polls and principles, come and join this
campaign."?Hilton Head, S.C., Feb. 16, 2000

[Edit: it's not fair only to post odd remarks by W. Here's a description of some of Moon's comments at one of the two events in Latin America at which Bush appeared. (He appeared at two, not one.) Meanwhile Moon was in full flow, asking his 700 guest such penetrating questions as "why do sexual organs exist?" and "when you defecate, do you wear a gas mask?" ]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, Neo, I don't insist he's a moron. I only say he sounds like one quite frequently. It's this feeling that his own intelligence is not much in evidence, at least to me, that raises a certain tenderness in the area of who his influences will be. But of course he may be a very, very intelligent man, appearances notwithstanding.

I'm so glad I don't have to pretend we have any good candidates for the presidency. It is so much easier and cleaner than defending the indefensible.

Olasky as ethics advisor will have to wait for another time. It's nice for you that you're comfortable with it. I do not have any reason to think he is not a decent person; only that he believes the Bible is infallible and inerrant, and is the gentleman chosen by the President-in-waiting to be his ethics advisor. Biblical inerrancy seems to me to be an irrational doctrine, and I don't need to be reminded that there are nice people who embrace it.

As for Robertson, I shall repost my earlier comments when I have time. I don't know whether I have "exaggerated" the level of their connection, because this is "confidential." I hope you're right, and think you probably are, since politicians forget their promises, as a rule, rather quickly.



To: Neocon who wrote (14808)3/10/2000 11:25:00 PM
From: Brian P.  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 769667
 
Neo,

Apropos of nothing in this debate here except the issue of G. W. Bush's intelligence: I don't think he is flat out dumb--he's not Dan Quayle

(it still amazes me that no one took Quayle aside and told him in no uncertain terms that it was a bad idea to run for Prez (!)--it remains Bush pere's single most egregious judgement call in selecting Quayle for VP),

but it is disappointing to have a potential President of the United States and leader of the world who is as intellectually limited and lacking in intellectually energy and curiosity as Dubya. Most people on this thread have, at least, read three times more books than that guy--I'd bet my entire JDSU holding on that! (g).

Reagan was intellectually limited but he had an uncanny force of personality and charm and unshakable sense of direction to which people responded. And a way with words. I recently saw Reagan on TV in an old debate with Bill Buckley on the Panama Canal issue--from years ago. Needless to say he couldn't hold his own against Buckley, but he had communication skills that Bush entirely lacks and did a far better job than Junior ever would in the debate. About conservative issues, Reagan really cared and really had thought about things in his own Reagan way. I don't get the sense that W has any of that kind of authenticity and substance.