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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Jacques Chitte who wrote (79596)5/22/2000 5:22:00 PM
From: epicure  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
>Or a dog
kicker.<

God probably doesn't like it that god spelled backwards is dog. I think that would account for his dog kicking. It does NOT however account for his human kicking. And let's not forget about all those poor fallen sparrows.



To: Jacques Chitte who wrote (79596)5/22/2000 10:26:00 PM
From: Edwarda  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
I think it is a universal human striving to have the creation or the student meet and ultimately surpass the maker or teacher. So imposing my own Weltanschauung on the question of the ideal between creator and creature - I would say that God (as much as we can say about such a thing) would seek in us a potential equal, a suitor. After all, the concept of being made in God's image implies to me not a corrupted copy, but offspring capable of taking over the family franchise some day. The whole thing is more than a little Pygmalionic.

Before I read on in catching up on the thread, what an intriguing notion, the family franchise! I must think about this.

I think that there a love affair going on between men and God, at least on the part of the mystics. And that this love affair is not junk stuff but an honest minded attempt to understand the beloved. And, perhaps, to become it.

The Pygmalion image has great force. I have always seen God in this story, as I have in the sci fi story of the person who had a whole world of people in his computer and didn't know what to do with them--source?

There is so much in the Old Testament depiction of God, especially for a person who has not studied the Talmud and all the work around it, that is off-putting at best. It was a god of a wandering folk with few guidelines in their lives and a great many challenges.

Even when one studies the commentaries to the Talmud, one sees the understanding of the enormous kindness that was implicit in the Commandments. This understanding, it seems to me, has been lost.



To: Jacques Chitte who wrote (79596)5/23/2000 8:14:00 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
I certainly understand how you might feel it to be repellent, given its primitiveness and violence.

As a matter of logic, though, there is no question of the protege surpassing the mentor. The essence of the relationship precludes that. However, one of the features of Christian theology is the exaltation of human nature through its union with the Divine nature in Christ. Through this, the rest of humanity has an opportunity to unite, though not as intimately, with God. Although among the Western Fathers, this process was known as sanctification, among the Greeks it was boldly called divinization, apotheosis. Through it, human beings were made more Godlike, and fit to stand in His presence and view Him "face to face". Accordingly, man, who had been made "a little lower than the angels", was exalted above them through Christ. It goes without saying that none of this is earned, that it is a gift freely given. According to the conception of one of the Greek Fathers, Gregory of Nazianzen, if I remember correctly, God wills the salvation of everyone, but it up to the individual to accept it. Although there were opposing views of election, this is more or less the view that has prevailed in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches since at least the Counter- Reformation. Protestant denominations vary.

Now, on the tone. It is true that there is a primitiveness to scripture which can easily offend the modern sensibility. There was even a heresiarch long ago who denied that the God manifested in the Old Testament was the same as the one in the New Testament, because the first was so harsh, and the second comparatively gentle, like the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. But you are right to say that is wrong, it is the same God. Why else would he require the Crucifixion as an element in salvation?As the doctrine goes, Christ was the perfect sacrifice to stand in vicarious atonement for our sins, thus satisfying the requirements of justice. It seems a pretty harsh justice. And yet, on the other hand, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son", and, of course, through the Crucifixion, Christ triumphed over death and assumed his place in Heaven. So, yes it is harsh, and yet, there is an element of "no harm done". That is the peculiar feature of the whole Bible: yes, it is hard, and yet, there is mercy, and forgiveness, and the continual call to care for the widow and the orphan, and the promise of a day when "the lion shall lay down with the lamb".

The final element is to be found in the Book of Job. Job, you may recall, is a righteous Gentile much favored by God, and Satan questions whether his righteousness is mercenary or sincere, since he has had so many blessings bestowed upon him. God allows Satan to test Job with tribulations, and after horrible suffering, Job is further tormented by friends who argue that he must have somehow brought this on himself. Job will not "curse God and die", but rather asserts the he knows that God will redeem him, thus proving his fidelity. However, he does question why all of this happened to him. God appears in a whirlwind, and essentially says "Who are you to question my ways? I am the Lord of the Universe, who created you and gave you breath". Nevertheless, after rebuking him, God heals Job and returns him to prosperity.

Now, there is something unsatisfactory about God's rebuke, and theodicy, the attempt to justify God's ways to man, is a common occupation of the faithful. And yet, there is something on point, at least as an approach to the problem, about the rebuke. We deride the absolute sovereignty of men because they are men. But God is God, and it really is His universe, and He really is sovereign absolutely, assuming that He exists.

That is the point that is brought home endlessly in Scripture, and not only through punishing. That is why the least is continually exalted, as when Jacob is favored over Esau, or the Hebrews are favored over the Egyptians, or the Apostles are collected from among fishermen and artisans. God demonstrates his power through the exaltation of the lowly.

Anyway, any speech about God is analogical. As things go on in the Bible, and God persists in favoring the children of Israel even after they have let Him down time and again, it seems to me that one can discern the love He has for His people, and that His punishments amount to "tough love". Now, you may disapprove, and therefore may find that the Biblical God is not for you, but I think that should not prevent noticing that some sort of love is there........