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To: blake_paterson who wrote (43126)	5/29/2000 10:00:00 AM
From: SBHX	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 93625

blake_paterson, Willy with SSE is 10x faster than anything out there. Just to be clear, SSE (Streaming SIMD extensions) are supported by all PIII (even non willy PIIIs). They are mostly 4-way floating point instructions that help 3D geometry, transform and lighting --- features that are now standard in the new graphics processors. There's also a single instruction that also helps motion estimation by calculating sum of abs diff. The data streaming prefetch and fence instructions make up the rest of SSE. Useful, but hardly critical to run well. The departure from MMX to SSE (or MMX-II as it used to be called) is that MMX is intel's public open architecture supported even by AMD, and universally well supported by most s/w vendors. MMX-II is a closed architecture and disliked universally by s/w vendors. Intel generally has to spend more money for people to write MMX than x86 native, and now they have to spend even more to get people to write MMX-II code. The people who watch the PC industry for fun also have noted that intel's latest architectural innovations in areas of CPU bus, IO and memory interconnects have not been open and they have erected barriers that make them essential controlled and proprietary. Each new innovation requires even more and more stringent barriers as their legal department hone and polish the terms of their NDAs to the point where other vendors working with them are at their complete mercy. Did you ever try to get a Slot1 or socket 370 license recently? Well, that is going to get MUCH MUCH worse moving forward. This really is the part that most people don't like. For those who don't have a financial interest long or short, this thing is really about open vs closed proprietary architectures. Sometimes closed architectures will win and the customers end up paying for it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. Also, the graphics guys charge whatever thay can get for each board. If you really want a 64MB DDR graphics card, then you might as well really really really really pay for it >;->. The wonders of non-upgradeable graphics boards.

To: blake_paterson who wrote (43126)	5/29/2000 3:31:00 PM
From: gnuman	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 93625

Via at Computex 2000 New on the Via site. Among other things, they will demo a KX133 based "Sys" system with Athlon at 1.4gHhz. (Probably KryoTech cooled). The DDR266 seminar agenda is also up. 61.13.32.101 Presenters are Via, AMD, S3, AMI2, Hyundai, Samsung, Micron and Infineon. The memory chip maker topics are: Hyundai: Advantages of DDR over PC133 SDRAM Samsung: DDR availability and Infrastructure technology overview. Micron: DDR system implementation, Performance gain, Cost adder. Infineon: DDR system overview, Technology crossover. Sounds very similar to the DDR Summit in Ca.

To: blake_paterson who wrote (43126)	5/29/2000 6:05:00 PM
From: Bilow	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 93625

Hi blake paterson; Re the purported pricing of DDR from the DELL pricing for 32MB and 64MB cards... There are numerous problems with this analysis. You are comparing the prices of two distinct cards, one with 32MB of SDRAM, and the other with 64MB of DDR. Neither of the cards has their brand identified, so we have no way of knowing what extra features are included with the DDR card. But amazingly, that's not your only error. You say that $240 is the (retail) price for 32MB of DDR. In your equations, this is the single known value. From that, you derive the price of DDR, which is the single unknown value. But the two cards differ in that one is an SDRAM card, and the other is a DDR card. So there are (at least) two unknowns here, the price of SDRAM and the price of DDR. (In addition, there is the unknown price of the other differences between the cards.) Simply put, your analysis is simplistic. Here's the link to Dell's video card selection. Unlike your unprofessional link (I am rumored to be a paid basher, after all (G)), my link works, and in addition, includes a description of the various choices: 3D Prophet DDR-DVI GeForce 32MB AGP Video Card (white box) This card accelerates the complex animations in 3D games. $268.95 gigabuys.us.dell.com There is no 64MB GeForce card offered on that link, God only knows what Dell will ship you if you select the 64MB DDR card. But there is a more obvious thing to note here. You are claiming that: "That's $240 extra for 32Mb of DDR or $960 for 128Mb." The above link gives an example of a complete 32MB DDR card on the Dell site for only $268.95. I suppose that the the entire rest of the card is going to sell for only $268.95 - $240.00 = $28.95? There really was no reason for me to post this analysis, as the numbers I'm replying to were so weak, but hey, it's Memorial Day. -- Carl P.S. If you want to become a serious poster on SI, always test the links in your posts after you submit them, and immediately correct as needed. I do.

To: blake_paterson who wrote (43126)	6/14/2000 6:51:00 AM
From: Bilow	Respond to of 93625

Hi all; Initial DDR retail pricing per MB... There's been some silly attempts to estimate the cost of 128MB of DDR SDRAM on this thread that have come up with very high prices for DDR. As an example: "That's $240 extra for 32Mb of DDR or $960 for 128Mb." #reply-13791318 These comparisons, (similar to the comparisons showing that RDRAM based systems from Dell are cheaper than SDRAM based systems from Micron, and erroneously concluding that RDRAM is cheaper than SDRAM), have been done through the technique of comparing two completely different things with radically different features, from two different manufacturers, but that happen to have a difference between the memory systems. Comparing prices this way makes about as much sense as comparing prices for doorknobs by subtracting asking prices on new homes. But despite these misgivings, here is an example of a company selling two nearly identical products, distinguished only by the amount of DDR SDRAM they carry. This gives a closer estimate of what DDR SDRAM costs to the consumer: $295.00 3D PROPHET II GTS GeForce2 CHIPSET AGP4X 32MB DDR RAM TV OUT DVD PLYBAK 2048x1536 350MHZ RAMDAC -4766014 $359.00 3D PROPHET II GTS GeForce2 CHIPSET AGP4X 64MB RAM TV OUT DVD PLYBAK 2048x1536 350MHZ RAMDAC - 4766015 ibuyer.net The price of the 64MB unit is shown cheaper than the $359 I quote, but the companies showing those prices do not claim to have them in stock. The pricing I chose is from Micro Pro, Inc., and they claim to be in stock on both items. (Shipping is identical at $11.) In addition, Shopping Planet also claims to be in stock on both boards, with prices of $416.20 and $356.30. These prices give the same difference between for the 32MB of DDR as the Micro Pro prices do. No other companies show stock. I think this price comparison is about as fair as I can make it. (Note that if you compared the Micro Pro price for the 64MB board against the Shopping Planet price for the 32MB board, you would conclude that adding 32MB of DDR decreases the price of the board. This shows how important it is that these kinds of price comparisons be done only between nearly identical products from the same manufacturer and retailer.) The Micro Pro price difference gives $60.20 for 32MB of DDR. The boards appear to be exactly the same, other than the amount of memory installed. If DDR SDRAM memory pricing for PCs initially follows the same sort of markup (and it's about the right ball park, at least for the first few months), then you could get a stick of 128MB of DDR for a memory cost of something like $240. Actual price would be more, maybe around $300. This compares favorably with current retail pricing for PC800 RDRAM at around $470. (per members.home.com ) Note that this is the highest speed DDR available, and provides a (64-bit) bandwidth of 2.6GB/sec, 66% higher than the 1.6GB/sec of PC800. The reasonable way to calculate memory prices is to look them up on the internet direct from the memory makers. Hyundai invited memory consumers to buy the chips probably used in the above board for $15.50 back in February: The 2M x 32-bit 166-MHz DDR DRAM is available in a 100-pin QFP and is priced at $21 in sample quantities. Volume deliveries are planned for Q2, when pricing should be $15.50. techweb.com The graphics guys are undoubtedly getting the x16 DDR chips cheaper than Hyundai's public quote. These public quotes are what the chip house wishes it could sell the parts in volume for. But that figure amounts to a memory cost of $248 per DIMM. There are other costs to the DIMM, of course, but the total should come in well below the current price of PC800 RDRAM, and with 66% more bandwidth and lower latency. -- Carl