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Technology Stocks : WDC/Sandisk Corporation -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: astyanax who wrote (11776)6/3/2000 4:37:00 PM
From: Tumbleweed  Respond to of 60323
 
Each one of these will need storage <g>

This article from CNET discusses phones now being built to play MP3 (as shown by Eli on his recent web broadcast on ON24). Personally, I dont see people listening in 'real time' as they discuss towards the end, it will be too expensive for the forseeable future. But taking an hour or 3's music with you as a few cards, thats a different matter. And it will greatly increase the reach and spread of MP3. INterestingly, in the list of company quotes given, its all mobile phone companies, eexcept for Sony. But instead of bitchin about that, think of it as an opportunity. The person writing this article, and therefore many of the people reading it, dont know what we know about Sandisk. One day they will, until then, we are still relatively undiscovered and therefore 'cheap'.

MP3s are wireless phone companies' next goal
By John Borland
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
June 2, 2000, 11:55 a.m. PT
In the fast-moving wireless phone industry, the next killer application may have more to do with music than with conversation.

The big wireless equipment makers all are rushing to create cell phones that can play MP3 music files, hoping to have them ready for the U.S. market by the end of this year. Most are building their prototypes now. Motorola, for example, showed its entry into the nascent market to analysts this week.


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For their part, the phone carriers see the Net music phenomenon as a valuable new way to sink use of their phones and networks even more deeply into customers' everyday lives.

"It goes after a lifestyle," said Jane Zweig, executive vice president of Herschel Shosteck Associates, a wireless consulting firm. "It's evolving. This is the way the industry is headed."

Analysts say wireless companies around the world have learned from the experience of companies in Japan and Scandinavia, where wireless customers are far ahead of the rest of the world in using their phones for such activities as downloading games, snippets of music or photographs, or for sending text messages. These services, often offered relatively cheaply by U.S. mobile standards, have in turn helped to drive use of the phones for ordinary voice calls.

The companies now are looking at the meteoric successes of the Sony Walkman and other subsequent personal music devices, hoping to add fuel to the fire already raging through the mobile phone market.

But even if the phones do come to market soon, it will be some time before a generation of head-bobbing cell phone customers hit the streets, analysts say.

Learn more about the future of the wireless Web this weekend on
CNET News.com TV
Saturday and Sunday, June 3 and 4, 4 to 5 p.m. ET on CNBC


The first wave of MP3-ready phones will simply see the players bolted to phones, providing storage for an hour or so of music. Those players will hit the market this year but are not likely to be used much for downloading or listening to songs directly over the wireless connection, analysts say.

The problem is, mobile phone connections still run around 14.4 kilobits per second--or about a quarter of the speed of the most common dial-up modems. That's not fast enough to do anything but painfully slow downloads or choppy, poor-quality streaming files.

That means most people using the cell phone/MP3 player crossovers will likely use them the same way they use a RioPort or other ordinary MP3 device, downloading songs on a personal computer with a fast connection and transferring them to the phone, analysts say.

But a new generation of mobile phone infrastructure should help lift those speed limits.

Dubbed "third generation" technology, these new networks will allow download speeds more than twice as fast as dial-up modems, or even speedier. That's enough to allow access to MP3 files stored online and streamed to cell phones--and that's where many in the industry see the real value.

"We're getting more and more dependent on this link to the network," said International Data Corp. analyst Iain Gillot. Because small sizes and low weight are critical for phones, models that can reduce the need to store data on the phone will be more successful, he said.

MP3 Web firms already are gearing up to offer their services to cell phone customers. Myplay.com, a company that offers huge online "storage lockers" for customers' music files, providing access to the files from any Web connection, already has a prototype for a next version of its service that allows wireless phone access.

Like others in the industry, Myplay is looking for the market to take off in Japan and Europe before it reaches the mainstream in the United States. Skeptics who point to the very real problem of maintaining adequate wireless quality for even a basic phone conversation in the United States should look to those areas as a guide, company executives say.

"What people have to realize is that it's much better in other parts of the world," said Myplay chief executive Doug Camplejohn. "You're really going to have the cell phone in those (areas) be a replacement for the Discman or the Walkman."

But the wireless network problems in the United States, which result in frequent dropped calls, patchy service coverage, and poor call quality, do raise serious questions about when any kind of reliable streaming services can be offered.

The upgrade plans for U.S. companies range from a year or so for intermediate technologies to several years for third-generation upgrades, analysts say. And even then, the companies will have to make sure they plan for the surge in usage produced by popular services such as MP3 music.

Already, Japanese carrier NTT DoCoMo's experience, which has seen the overwhelming use of its popular iMode Net service cause some network failures, shows the danger of overselling a service.

"It will take a different network than what is there today," Zweig said. "They'll have to make sure the marketing and engineering departments talk. And that hardly ever happens today."



To: astyanax who wrote (11776)6/3/2000 5:01:00 PM
From: Tumbleweed  Respond to of 60323
 
Re Dataplay.

The problem with any device like this - for example you could think of this a variation on the IBM 340MB disc, is severalfold;
1) Increases the purchase price of a camera or MP3 player massively. Lets say they are $250 each. So even a high end digi cam at say $750 is now $1000. Many people will prefer to go for a similar camera at $750 and buy additional storage a bit at a time, even if it costs more in the end.
As to adding a $250 device on a $150 MP3 player, dont even think about it.

2)Battery consumption. I dont know but it seems to me that a laser device would use even more current than a magnetic disc (and you have to spin those optical discs really quickly dont you?)

3) mechanical problems. Discussed here often. There seem to be reports of the IBM disc failing, too early to say how bad the problem is or even if its a general problem.

4) Its write only. Is that a problem? certainly means the versatility of deleting bad pictures on a digicam disappears. So maybe I'll be using a few more of those discs than I thought? So they'll work out more expensive than it looks at first. For example, I probably only keep one in 4 or 5 of my digi cam shots. (ie between taking the picture and then copying to PC when full). So that makes the actual cost to me of the disc 4 or 5 times its apparent costs. Now they are $25 to $50 each, not $5 to $10.

5) Probably even more critical, design-ins. How many digi cam and MP3 vendors are going to re-engineer their cameras in order to add another $250 on the entry price?

6) So people are investing $50M in this company? Doesn't impress me one bit. I thought Iridium was a dumb idea when it was announced, and the fact that people were prepared to invest $5billion in it made it no less stupid. So $50M doesnt say anything about how good the idea is. History is full of people investing money in bad ideas.

7) The discs are much more expensive than I thought they'd be. At say $10 each for a dataplay disc, I break even if I reuse a 40MB card about 12 times (not even taking into account point (4) above. I would think I've done more than that in 18 months on my current CF cards, so thats not a winning proposition for me.
And thats at current prices. By mid to end 2001 CF card prices will almost certainly be 1/2 or less than what they are today, but lowering the price of a mass produced disc will be unlikely to fall at the same rate. Plus, they have to get their money somewhere, so its likely they will try and lower the device price and keep the discs expensive to try and get you to buy one. (A bit like Epson and their printers/ink )

*) Even if it made its way into some high end digicams, do you see this device in under $500 digi cams, mass market MP3 players or cell phones? No, neither do I and thats where the bulk of our revenues will come from.

Even considering all that, I certainly think there might be a market for a download device where you could dump your CF card contents while on long vacations. I'm not sure how big that market would be. And just how long the vacation would have to be before just buying another card or two seemed easier and cheaper. What about in digital movie cameras? Would it be better than tape? Dont know enough about them to know that.500Mb probably isnt a lot when it comes to digital video.

By the way, I dont see this as a games device (as advertised on their web site). Its a disc. Thats a looooong way to go before you have a games player.

All JMHO

Joe



To: astyanax who wrote (11776)6/4/2000 2:35:00 PM
From: Doren  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 60323
 
DataPlay's 500-megabyte disks can hold four hours of CD-quality music

Hi,

My qualifications: Several years ago I worked for Tower Records in Sacramento where it started and where it is headquartered. I know the owner/founder Russ Soloman, who showed me one of the first CDs manufactured before they started to retail them. I worked there because I'm a music buff, not for the money. I'm now a digital designer with several computers, scanners, drives, digital video camera.

I agree that DataPlay's tech is too cumbersome and probably too late to compete with SanDisk.

good stuff about SanDisk:

1) the music industry is bigger than the movie industry
2) CDs do not have the quality of sound of vinyl, however the convenience factor made them the media of choice for now. MP3s DO NOT have "CD" quality sound in general but for non-fanatics the sound is adequate.

MP3s are even more convenient as they are small enough to be traded over the net even on a slow connection. The fact that CDs can 'jiggle' in a portable device makes MP3 flash technology even more convenient.

CDs have 12 or so songs on them. An MP3 CD can hold possibly a hundred songs.

3) there is no doubt that digital camera's will replace film cameras in all but the lowest and highest end of the markets
4) net enabled cell phones are coming
5) personally I think the scalability and non-mecanical nature of flash memory is a big plus.
6) I wish I had flashmemory capability on my computer. If I could store a program like Photoshop on a flashdisk it would open way faster. Over the course of a year that would save me a LOT of time.

Net phones are going to be MP3 enabled. If you take this to its logical end they will probably be photo enabled also. We are probably entering an era where people will carry a device that does a wide variety of things and will need a lot of memory.

The things that worry me about this company are:

1) the fact that they are fabless (other than Toshiba)
2) iomega owns the zip market, at one point Fuji was ready to sell zips for $4 and make a profit, despite that fact, iomega has not been able to capitalize on zips in a very success manner
3) SanDisk doesn't quite own the market yet, and due to the fact that they are fabless they may never own it.

Questions:

1) are there USB/firewire/etc. read/write machines for this tech for both Macs and PCs and if so how much?