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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (126)	7/27/2000 11:18:34 AM
From: donjuan_demarco	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 28931

Re cutting up private parts .. Mayan royalty used to take a large, sharp thorn and stick it through the relevant appendage. The thorn would be left in until the wound healed, so that there was a hole clean through the thing. It was a religious practice, and only the nobility had the privilege of doing it.

To: Lane3 who wrote (126)	7/27/2000 11:32:18 AM
From: marcos	Respond to of 28931

More likely they said "hey let's cut off X's penis, guy's a xxxx" but he squirmed, they got only a slice, then yea verily it did come to pass, as luck would have it, that the hunt was good, some cool babes dropped by, and beer was accidentally invented. So then guys volunteered their kids, and it became a custom. Many rabbits have lost feet for the same reason.

To: Lane3 who wrote (126)	7/27/2000 11:46:11 AM
From: average joe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 28931

It probably started to get rid of an infection or an itch that was driving someone insane. It was deemed to be a successful curative practice and was passed on as a ritual. Ask anyone who has cleaned a stallion sheath what the worst smell on earth is. It smells like rotting flesh even worse than a stock tip from Marcos. It is a dangerous practice as well. I know of one instance where a young boy had the end of his penis lobbed off by a new technique that uses an electrical zapper.

To: Lane3 who wrote (126)	7/27/2000 12:06:59 PM
From: Druss	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 28931

Karen--I mentioned Joseph Campbell's book Occidental Mythology as a reference source. An excellent source for what you are talking about is his book Primitive Mythology. Body mutilation goes back at least 25,000 years as part of sacrifices to the gods. Navajo men in historical times were recorded as cutting off fingers as offerings to the gods. Normally the little finger and ring finger were given. In some men, all they kept were six fingers (counting the thumb). What this has bearing on is the famous cave paintings of Western Europe show similar things. Hand prints were often made using a mouthful of paint to spray around the hand to form a 'negative' image. Many of the adult size hands show this mutilation pattern. Genital mutilation is not documented on the cave drawings but we do have historical records of such going back of a number of types. Australian Aborigine male practiced slitting the penis starting below the tip. The slit was made on the bottom. This was a rite of passage done on young males. A small slit was made at first but later on in years many males would opt for longer slits in later years some cutting to the very base of the shaft. Female clitorectomy is continues to be practiced in many African and Middle Eastern countries. This is done frequently by parents seeking to control the sexual activity of daughters starting to hit their teens. This has become a major issue of women's rights advocates in the areas. However the practice seems to go back thousands of years. My feeling it that it dates from the development of agriculture in the area. Hunter gatherer groups operate in small bands and young females reaching the age of fertility are married off. Subduing their sexuality is not desirable for the new husband. Agriculture produces surplus population and higher marriage ages. Circumcision of both sexes is widely practiced in the Middle East and Africa. The origins seem to be sacrificial in nature, a highly sensitive area imbued with mystical fertility capabilities. I have seen arguments that keeping sand out of the foreskin area was the reason it began. I don't buy that one at all. Too much like saying you get sand between your eye and eyelid so get rid of the eyelid. Just cannot picture people thinking that way. Males tend to get into a fetal ball at the thought of cutting that area. only a demand from a deity would get them to do so. A bit of sand would be a minor discomfort and easily fixed. Ritualized piercing of female's hymens at young ages is also practiced in scattered areas as is a number of cultures which practice ornamentation of the genitals, often by piercing and hanging objects. Hope this helps. All the Best Druss

To: Lane3 who wrote (126)	7/27/2000 4:58:59 PM
From: Solon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 28931

(I did manage to slip a "come to pass" into my post out of respect for your style (thank you, Karen! :) When I was in Cancun, I saw several of the Mayan sites including the ball game court where the wall etchings showed the losers being subjected to the ignominy of being forced to cut off the heads of the winners as they waited reverently in line for the Supreme honor of becoming Gods. Reverence and surety simply do not come any stronger than this. Of course, they also had their young maiden sacrifices where the honored teen was given an hallucinogenic agricultural concoction/drink before having her heart ripped out, and she tossed into a large pit filled with water. I was there for the vernal equinox, and watched the shadow of the sun pass down the steps of their astronomy tower which was the snake from the Sun God bringing down the Sun's seed to fertilize Mother Earth so that agriculture could flourish, and life could once again be sustained. Here is a link I just found which is a long read (and difficult) analyzing the belief system of the Mayans, and at times correlating it with biblical scripture (mainly Revelation). Their affinity with Nature and with the Cosmos beggars thought. As humankind has increasingly grown to live life in a conceptual arena of the mind, we no longer are able to fully grasp this type of relationship to the cosmos. It truly is mind boggling and humbling. siloam.net I took a little mythology in University back when the Mayans still had a bit of clout. I would say that Campbell is standard in this field, and Druss is relying on probably the best objective source for pondering the whole field in layman's language. He was featured on a television lecture series (as Druss mentioned), which used to be available on tape. However, the books will certainly do the trick. The whole idea behind sacrifice is generally to appease the Gods so that they accept a lesser gift other than your life (preferably sombody elses), while at the same time protecting your food/life source with the correct amount of rain/sun, etc. The priests turned this into a tribal honor. In the Mayan case, not only were the priests able to convince the people of the honor of lesser sacrifices...but they had them desperate to win the honor of dying to become Gods. Geting back to the issue of how circumcision first happened: I suspect that it was probably a fertility/potency sacrifice originally. Perhaps one of the stronger thinkers in the tribe suggested that removing the prepuce would allow the Gods to visually appreciate the fertility of the offering and convince the Gods that the seed would be very desirable and potent. We always try to give great gifts to those we love (OR FEAR), and our idea of value is defined and colored by our self reference. As far as I'm concerned...giving only part of the penis to the Gods is a reasonable compromise! :) Phallic worship was not uncommon in the agricultural society, and it would not be out of place to do a little sculpting. Keeping in mind that priests and similar are representatives of God (have they not said so?), it follows that ritual practices can be thereafter rationalized. It is difficult for the scientific mind to grasp this sacrificial mentality, but when your life constantly hangs in the balance due to what are percieved as capricious Acts of God (the Sun God, Rain God, etc.), based on their feelings--are they, or are they not angry with you? and why)--these rituals take on an overweening significance... One may presume that, on that faraway day when humankind first developed consciousness of death--when we were first able to conceptually experience long term cause and effect--on that day, the thunder and lightning was followed, not merely by simple fear, but by SUPPLICATION. We have been praying and sacrificing ever since...