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To: Oblomov who wrote (18607)	9/15/2000 2:13:50 AM
From: Ken98	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 436258

Oblomov, a couple of observations for whatever they may be worth. First, I agree most American's have lost any notion of the basic civil liberties/freedoms - either the tangible ones such as basic property rights or the intangible ones such as the right to be free of governmental intrusion in our personal lives. And that trend shows no sign of abating. Freedom of speech has become freedom of politically correct speech. Property rights have been subjugated to politics - many environmental laws and drug forfeiture laws being prime examples. "Due process" allows courts to ignore DNA evidence and leave innocent persons in jail. Just imagine adding "uniform" health care to that mix. Unless and until there is some sort of political outcry, the erosion will continue and will, in fact, accelerate. The old line "liberals" (being civil libertarians) from 40-50 years ago have morphed into the vanguard of the Nanny State. The "conservatives" have become a fading voice in the lost Culture War. The second, and hopefully shorter, observation is that there is a direct relationship in people's participation in a "political" body with the degree to which they can be heard. I do a fair amount of zoning work and people do participate in those sort of political activities because their voices are more likely to be listened to. Likewise for local school boards, park boards, etc. The further up the political chain you go, the less likely people are to participate - no one will listen to you. The centralization of Federal power has greatly accelerated the degree of political disenfranchisement by ordinary citizens. And again, this shows no sign of abating. Now I need another drink! Regards, Ken

To: Oblomov who wrote (18607)	9/15/2000 8:30:08 AM
From: flatsville	Respond to of 436258

Oblomov-- If given the choice between voting/paying taxes and not-voting/not paying taxes, do you think that any but a small minority would actually vote? I think the vast majority of Americans would be high insulted and threatened by such a proposal. Let's move beyond the theorhetical for a moment. I think such a proposal would never see amendment status (which is what it would take at minimum to make it the law of the land.) There would be a hue and cry like never before if it ever found a sponsor and was introduced on the floor of either house of Congress...followed by much belly laughing. I have to agree with much of what Ken said re: this: The second, and hopefully shorter, observation is that there is a direct relationship in people's participation in a "political" body with the degree to which they can be heard. A committed individual can have an enourmous affect on the municipal and even state level. I've done it myself...shut down multi-million dollar projects using the threat to take my vote (and a few thousand of my closest friends) elsewhere as well as obtained leverage over millions for the benefit of people who I believed deserved a shot at homeownership. To acheive these kinds of results you have to push away from the TV or computer and hold politicians acoountable on 24/7 basis rather than just once every four years. On the federal level it becomes incredibly difficult to affect change as an individual. I know this from personal experience as a lobbyist and legislative liason. Unless you belong to large national membership organization or coalition that can weild large blocks of votes you are ignored by and large. Sad but true. It's a big country. What can I say? You need to get in the game. Teams are beign formed every day. Sign-up. Enslist. Go to war.

To: Oblomov who wrote (18607)	11/6/2000 2:54:00 PM
From: Kevin Podsiadlik	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 436258

I'm curious (since the topic got re-broached): what would you think of this twist on the "modest proposal"? Offer true European-style "cradle to grave" government caretaking, but at the cost of the recipient's right to vote. Or if that be too harsh, allow them to vote, but give the government dependents' ballots less weight than non-dependent citizens. For some reason a compromise at a level of three-fifths comes to mind. I'm confident that most Americans view the power of their vote similarly. If given the choice between voting/paying taxes and not-voting/not paying taxes, do you think that any but a small minority would actually vote? It would make a mockery of our political system. And this is my true motive in suggesting this "modest proposal". -g-