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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Greg or e who wrote (31463)	9/20/2000 12:20:02 PM
From: O'Hara	Respond to of 39621

><>...Good morning Greg...><> I will get back to you on this ASAP, sometime today still!!....An important matter has just been brought to my attention. I do want you to know however, that I have given it much thought and I do have a response ready for you, and it is quite lengthy so I need to set aside time without interruption. Have a most blessed day Shalom...><>

To: Greg or e who wrote (31463)	9/20/2000 11:54:09 PM
From: O'Hara	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

†...Good evening Greg...><> Finally had enough time set aside to devote my sincerest response to your post. Thanks for posting your understanding of God's saving grace. However one thing remains true. 16: For God so loved the world...(Not just some), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (Not just some)...as you have stated. Greg,You start out by declaring: "I agree that; "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Then you go on to say But. It is really not that confusing Greg. I believe you are in error because your premise is in error....your premise being in your own words: "So again I say if it is truly Gods will that everybody would be saved then they would be since no one is able to thwart His will." My dear friend, unfortunately the Bible is full of instances in which people have gone totally against the will of God, even before the foundations of the world, case in point, satan. He was never created to undermine the position of God, yet he did. It was never the will of God for satan to take the course which he so delighted in taking! It was never the will of God for 1/3 of the angels to rise up in battle against God. And they did thwart the will of God anyway. And were summarily cast out of the Kingdom of God and damnation was pronounced upon them! It was never the will of God for mankind to fall in the garden but they did. And Oh what a mighty fall it was.! It was in fact, the will of God that they eat of every tree...except!! And they did thwart the will of God anyway! And were summarily cast out of the garden of Eden!! It was never the will of God that the sons of God should leave their habitation(Heaven)and take the daughters of man and bring their offspring into this world....And they did also thwart the will of God. And thus the flood!! Three major instances Greg of the will of God being thwarted and we are still only in the 6th book of Genesis. The will of God had been thwarted from the beginning!! You wrote: Here is the problem as I see it, maybe you can help me out. I can only pray to God Greg, that you at least come away from this discourse with a promise to God that you will at least give this belief of yours a deeper look.! In my understanding of reading your explanation why it is the will of God that only some are saved...(God forbid)!! I see two flaws that are affecting your reasoning. The first: I have just touched on. The second: I am of the opinion that you have not fully appreciated the relevance and or specific rendering of the scripture you use to bolster your position. Those scriptures being: John 37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me... John 39 all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" So you go on to reason that if these be true, then all who are drawn to Christ will be saved, and if it were the will of God to save all....they must first be drawn to Christ...then all will be saved!!!. ...But we also know from scripture that all will not be saved. Therefore you say that it is not the will of God that all be saved!! This is in fact your position. Generally this looks like a fairly good reasoning process but it fails miserably when looked at specifically and in the context of the entire Word of God. If you look carefully at those scriptures you will readily find that Jesus uses the words giveth and given. These words convey a complete declaration . The word draw is just that...draw! That no man can come to Christ unless the Father draw him is an absolute, because the scripture declares this. But having been drawn to Him is no guarantee that they will believe that He is the Christ. Once the Father draws a person that person must choose to see Him as the Christ...(we know some will not choose Christ..this is the only reason ..they refuse to believe!!), and in order to do that they must give Him a chance. Many do not!! If they give Him a chance then they are given to Christ by the Father....He then declares them to Him. Consider John 12:32 Jesus's words..."If I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me". He was lifted up, and all men were drawn to Him. He is known throughout the world, yet all men have not accepted Him as the Messiah. If you argue that I have been much too specific and or far too analytical, or I am just plain wrong, then I say I would much rather be wrong and err on the side for God.... then to ever be a party to limiting His limitless grace. Have Christians become so utterly ego stricken by the righteousness of Christ, which they claim as their own, that they have lost sight of the entire ministry of Christ? Can these same Christians honestly look unbelievers in the eye and preach the Good News? What is the good of the news if they may not be included? How does one explain to an unbeliever that "though I am saved by the grace of God, I cannot tell you that He will extend that same grace to you, because it is not the will of God (who saved me) to save all men...just some!! And you may not be one of those special people.!! And if you are not then there is no hope for you...no chance, no opportunity...No Grace for you!!! What does a person who believes this say? Sorry my friend but "God is a respector of persons".!!? I dare say Greg one who believes this limited atonement doctrine thinks of himself as a privileged character. What else can he think within his heart? It is by the nature of its application a special privilege indeed! This doctrine carelessly and without merit judges God himself. Even more dangerous is teaching it as Gospel. It teaches against everything Jesus the Christ preached and stood for, it teaches against His entire ministry. It corrupts,minimizes, and in fact does nulify His death on the cross and His glorious resurrection!! It puts all unbelievers at a insurmountable disadvantage if in the end there was no chance for them. Why should they want to believe in a God who may not believe in them. A God who has determined that only some will have the opportunity to experience His grace and be drawn to Christ. In this manner most other religions would give the unbeliever more hope...at least they are taught they will be able to work their way to Heaven. They should think that they have good reason to go to those other religions...since at least they teach have a guarantee!! Work, work, work,!!! Sounds better than no chance at all...for some only of course!! Greg I don;t know how deep this doctrine is engraved in your mind, but I do pray that you will give it a serious second look, if not for your sake then for the sake of those you teach it to and most especially for the sake of God's true character and His love for All people. It is a dangerous practice to judge or minimize the grace and mercy of our most awesome Father.! The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Alpha and Omega....The great I AM! What a merciful God He is!! 1Tim 2:3-6 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour Who will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of truth For there is on God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself a ransome for all to be testified in due time. That is the Good news!! And all praise and glory and thanks be unto Him!! Have a blessed evening Shalom...><>