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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (38393)	9/20/2000 2:44:38 PM
From: microhoogle!	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

One might dispute whether early term abortion is murder What is your opinion about stem cell research? Do you think that is a murder of a human? Talking about DEISM, I found interesting info from Library of Congress links provided by Alex this morning: "Deism" is a loosely used term that describes the views of certain English and continental thinkers. These views attracted a following in Europe toward the latter part of the seventeenth century and gained a small but influential number of adherents in America in the late eighteenth century. Deism stressed morality and rejected the orthodox Christian view of the divinity of Christ, often viewing him as nothing more than a "sublime" teacher of morality. Thomas Jefferson and John Adams are usually considered the leading American deists. There is no doubt that they subscribed to the deist credo that all religious claims were to be subjected to the scrutiny of reason. "Call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion," Jefferson advised. Other founders of the American republic, including George Washington, are frequently identified as deists, although the evidence supporting such judgments is often thin. Deists in the United States never amounted to more than a small percentage of an evangelical population

To: Neocon who wrote (38393)	9/20/2000 3:40:32 PM
From: TigerPaw	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

but late term abortion, when the baby is fully formed, and especially a procedure such as partial birth abortion, is certainly murder. It's not clear that there is murder until the fetus is self aware. That event ranges from 1 to 2 years after birth. Birth is the most clear and straightforward event in which to make a legal distinction. Patients who have lost their awareness get the plug pulled all the time and no murder charges are brought up. Is it society's duty to preserve these bodies too? TP

To: Neocon who wrote (38393)	9/20/2000 3:55:34 PM
From: Machaon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

<< In Deism, ... God set things in motion, ... but did not miraculously intervene. >> Ahhhhhh, tis wonderful. Invent a religion that explains why a god is not actively involved in saving millions from the tragedys of the world. << In Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, the Problem of Evil is no greater because of the enormity of the murders than it is when a child falls ill and dies of leukemia. >> If I were to invent a religion, where I had a chance to make a fortune, but didn't want to be punished for abusing my power, I would want to minimize responsibility for crimes, also. << the universe has been disrupted by the fact of rebellion, >> A faulty design creating the universe? Perhaps God should have taken a class in Systems Analysis before creating the universe. I can see why things went bad. In the early days, there was just one man, Adam. When God was walking thru the Garden, he couldn't find Adam. Adam was hiding behind a bush. If God was imperfect, so that He could not find his only subject, I can see why there were flaws in the Universe. << ... first among the angels, then among men ... >> Why is it that angels and men, close to God, rebel against Him? Perhaps He is not easy to get along with!? If that is the case, imagine spending an eternity being in a place with him, where you do not have free will, or the ability to rebel! =====> to be continued.....

To: Neocon who wrote (38393)	9/20/2000 4:14:29 PM
From: Machaon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

<< the universe ... is no longer perfect, but fragile and subject to disease and disruption. >> Is that because of God's design problem, man's concept of a god, or natural events? It's like Firestone shifting the blame for faulty tires to the victims, because they rebelled against God Firestone and didn't inflate the tires according to the rules. << However, free- will is sufficiently important an element of God's plan that it is worth the travail. >> Yes, the old free-will scam. But, just because man has free will, did God have to create things like botulism and mad cow disease and AIDS and impotency after drinking too many beers? << ... not that this life doesn't matter, but that the ultimate fate of the soul matters more. Neither thing makes it right that terrible things happen to people. It just says that is not the whole story. >> Another way of inventing a god to fit into mankinds plans. The religious establishment promises eternal riches and rewards. All we have to do is obey them and give them our worldy riches. In return, they will give us much more than we give them. The only catch? You can only collect AFTER you die! It works! I'm not kidding you, the scam works! "What!? You want a preview of Heaven? You want a sample? Out of our church you ingrate! Hmmmm!? Wait, don't leave yet! Did you put anything into the basket yet?" ======> to be continued, again......

To: Neocon who wrote (38393)	9/20/2000 6:17:17 PM
From: Machaon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

<< Since only a perfect sacrifice could take on the burden for the whole world, He had to send the Son. >> But, this is a human concept, not a god concept. A god that can create an entire universe of zillions of stars and planets, including life on Earth; could make any rule, or create any life form that He desired. To imply that God's hands were tied, and the only solution, He had, was to have his son murdered, so that He would be forced to forgive mankind, defies imagination. For instance, if God had not liked what He had created, he could have made Earth disappear and then created ten more Earths with bunches of people, none of which would be created with original sin. Or, He could have walked away from the Earth and created another planet, somewhere else, where the beings on it would not have original sin. He might even have created a life form without sexual functions. If Christianity had never existed, and someone today came up with that story, he would probably be hung to death in Salem, Mass. << It assumes that God's justice is as important as His mercy, and that the evil of the world cannot be entirely written off.......... >> Again..... witness man's concept of a less than perfect god to explain away evil. << One might dispute whether early term abortion is murder, but late term abortion, when the baby is fully formed, and especially a procedure such as partial birth abortion, is certainly murder. >> Late term abortion is supposed to be performed when the fetus is hopelessly defective, and giving birth could kill the mother, or make her not be able to have more children. If you outlaw partial birth abortion, the doctor has to open up a woman's stomach to remove the near-dead fetus. What joy do you find in this? << You are either disingenuous, or intellectually incompetent...... >> You made a mistake this time, buddy! The answer is BOTH! You should have said "and/or"!