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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Ilaine who wrote (2796)10/27/2000 11:55:58 AM
From: cosmicforce  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 28931
 
Do you see by being on this thread and declaring your adherence to Catholicism (in some personal form, it would appear) that it is easy to misinterpret your intent?

BTW, you may not be advancing :
... the thesis that the Catholic religion has all the answers or is the One True Way.

but you do realize that the Pope is advancing this (just recently I might add).

By having an affiliation with him (indirectly through you church) you unfortunately bear the stigma (no pun intended) of actively supporting this affiliation and all the tenets espoused by it. If you were a Neo-Nazi, but not one of THOSE Neo-Nazi's, would you claim that you were exempt from being questioned about unsavory tenets held by the organization you profess membership to?

If you are here, you are here presumably to debate Solon's proposition. It is disingenuous to say, in effect, "I'm Catholic, yet not promoting Catholicism, and still I want to post on a thread that exists to debate the interpretation of the Almighty that has come down through the works of man, but leave my Catholicism out of it." The Catholic Church, the last time I checked, was one of the institutions that takes the works of man and presents them as the works of God.

If you are willing to debate this, how do you personally reconcile the fact that the Pope is put into a position ( by the tenets of the Church )of "infallibility" (dictionary:Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals ) with the fact that numerous Popes (including this one, no doubt ) have been wrong and sometimes, egregiously wrong? I'm curious what kind of rational model one would have to construct to coordinate any personal questions of the infallibility of the Pope with your highly likely, assuming you are rational, judgement as a human that he MUST be wrong sometimes and such errors can have grievous consequences.



To: Ilaine who wrote (2796)10/27/2000 4:58:48 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 28931
 
My argument is that Christianity, qua Christianity, does not cause people to do bad things. The Catholic Church has been the cause of some wrong things due to mistakes in doctrine which have, in my opinion, nothing to do with the words of Christ. Intolerance of homosexuality, intolerance of women, tolerance of slavery, desire to exterminate schismatics, none of that derives from Christ.

I disagree. For now, I will look briefly at slavery. Protestantism was responsible for justifying the subjection of millions of slaves. In 1860, 35 % of the population of the Southern States were slaves. Virtually all of the slave trade since biblical times was justified by the bible.

"Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise (Deut. 15:17 (In order to minimize the Bible's support for slavery, the King James translators used "servant" instead of "slave" in this verse and others. The RSV translators used "bondman." Any knowledgeable authority knows slaves are being discussed, and several versions, e.g. the NWT and Living Bible, are honest enough to admit as much." .)

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and you can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly ( Lev. 25:44-46).

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property (Ex. 21:20-21).

"I (the Lord-ed) will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, a nation far away (Joel 3:8) (See also: Ex. 21:2-6, Deut. 15:12, 28:68, and Jer.27:8,12).

Yes, millions and millions have been treated like animals and brutes because the bible advocates it. If there was one word in the bible to oppose this immoral act...what a difference it might have made. Just one word. Jesus was quick to denounce that which He considered immoral. Did Jesus say one word to condemn the treatment of fellow humans like cattle?? NO. NOT ONE WORD from the Son of God, the One with God. He said lots in the Old. He said nothing in the New. On one of the most horrible scourges of mankind, He said NOTHING. And for a moral preacher to say NOTHING, for the Son of God to say NOTHING...well, sorry...that justifies one hell of a lot. Just ask Jefferson Davies:

Jefferson Davies said: "...Let the gentleman go to Revelation to learn the decree of God--let him go to the Bible,.... I said that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, authorized, regulated, and recognized from Genesis to Revelation.... Slavery existed then in the earliest ages, and among the chosen people of God; and in Revelation we are told that it shall exist till the end of time shall come. You find it in the Old and New Testament--in the prophecies, psalms, and the epistles of Paul; you find it recognized, sanctioned everywhere (Jefferson Davis by Rowland, Vol. I, p. 316-17)."

Somebody told me that Peter and Paul were Christians qua Christians. They are from the New Testament. They know about, and they preach about, the Good News of Christ.

Paul said: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men....(Eph. 6:5-7).

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered (1 Tim. 6:1).

"Slaves, obey your earthy masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord (Col. 3:22).

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,....(Titus 2:9).

Peter says: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your master with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also those who are harsh....Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps (1 Peter 2:18,21).

Finally, a common example of how common Christians viewed slavery, and who they believed supported it:

Hawkins was an extremely pious Christian that shipped in the slave trade. The name of his ship was the Jesus of Lubeck

I will argue that Christianity qua Christianity DOES cause people to do EXTREMELY BAD THINGS. The subjugation of millions of people through slavery is merely one of them...