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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Dayuhan who wrote (86911)	11/8/2000 12:34:51 AM
From: E	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

What does the reference to the Bronx mean, or imply, exactly? And the veiled allusion to rich NY Jews? I don't see how they got into the conversation, tongue in cheek or not, really. Long before the tribulations of the Palestinian diaspora produced by the 1948 war, on which you seem to be blaming Palestinian hatred for the Jews ( and thus implying that it is deserved), the Palestinians were fans and supporters of Hitler. The "cultural difference" I was talking about was not abstract distaste, it was quite specifically related to the uprising. If genital mutilation and burning widows were a PR tactic to use against those you want to drive into the sea, the comparison would be valid. <<<or that they might not prevent children who cannot be offered a life worth living from going out and dying for an utterly impractical ideal?>>> "might not prevent"? Er... did you read the interview with the Palestinian woman who runs the family planning center? They are having babies so they can afford to send some into the line of fire. They are telling the children they will go straight to paradise. They are getting paid for those deaths, and honored. <<<I don't approve of the Palestinians who deliberately provoke violence, but I can understand their actions.>>> They use their children. They get them killed. You understand this? Well, actually, I understand it too. Completely. That's why I loathe them for it. Presumably a "life worth living" has, to you, to do with some formula by which Palestinians in exile might be allowed to return? But surely the foundations of any agreement on return would have to include some sense that the returnees were not haters, potential killers, terrorists, and congenital enemies of the state of Israel? Do you think releasing the convicted terrorists was a helpful contribution to the dialog? Of course if your position is that the Jews should clear out, then their safety and security is irrelevant to you. Is that your position? Sharon, who believes the Palestinians can not be trusted not to always want the Jews dead and that force and strength is all the safety there is, is "far more despicable" for his provocation (which ended up revealing much, i'm afraid) than are the adults who manipulate children into dying, or being psychologically scarred, for the sake of getting their young corpses on prime time TV news? You surely don't mean that. The parents are paid quite handsomely -- and we Ameicans chip in generously -- for providing the child bodies. You call this "they might not prevent"? They cause it, Steven. It's the plan. Steven, they are cynically accumulating the corpses of children for publicity. They hate the Jews. They loved Hitler. Your suggestion that the Jews take over New York doesn't answer the Jewish fear of not having a refuge the next time the ovens are heating up. Our country sent them back to the camps! If I were Jewish, I would do anything not to have to depend on the conscience of the world again. The world has no conscience. Because of what we did, I support a Jewish homeland. It is necessary. You write <<<If people we like steal land from people we do not like, is that somehow more justified than the opposite situation. >>> Nihil's post was relevant to this question: Message 14735169 "Steal," Steven? It's an unusual use of the word. There were two population groups occupying Palestine. The Jews were legal residents admitted by the ruling authorities, ie the British, the Palestinians disliked the increasing presence of the (legally resident) Jews and expressed their feelings through pogroms, yes, pogroms, during the Arab Revolt, 1936 -39, and later through support for their Nazi-loving Grand Mufti. The United Nations recognized the justice of the Jewish claim for a part of Palestine. A partition plan was proposed, the Palestinians and six Arab states rejected it and declared war on Israel. Israel did not start the war. The dispossession of Palestinians was part of an armed conflict started by their sponsors and allies, and the Palestinians and their sponsors lost. They rejected partition! They lost the war! To reduce this history to "stealing land" is tendentious ideology. If you applied equal fairness to the child-exploiting, Nazi-loving, pogrom-holding, bellicose Palestinians, you would have more contempt for them than I do! See, I didn't mention their habit of murdering their own daughters and sisters for talking to a man or for being the victim of a rapist because it is only cultural, like genital mutilation, and not relevant to the the struggle with Israel. If there is to be peace in the Middle East, a settlement, it might start with the Palestinians discontinuing the practice of carting their children to places where molotov cocktails and snipers are planning confrontations. Just discontinuing the generous payments for the deaths would probably cut down on the number of poor children found there quite a bit. How do you like flinging money at that subsidy? What should the Jews do? Aside from removing the settlers, which is imperative. Should they trust the Palestinians?

To: Dayuhan who wrote (86911)	11/8/2000 1:42:05 PM
From: E	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

It's possible that I owe you an apology. You wrote, and I was rubbed the wrong way by, There is, of course, no solution. Perhaps we should give Palestine back to the Palestinians and let the Jewish State be established in New York City, where the Jewish people are already more numerous, prosperous, and secure than their counterparts in Israel. Perhaps they could make the Bronx bloom, which would be an accomplishment. I assume that you can recognize a tongue in a cheek. I re-read that this morning. And this time, "There is, of course, no solution" registered. It seems to make the remarks more wry and less mysteriously gratuitous than I perceived them as. I think my awareness of the increase in anti-Semititism, sometimes only slightly veiled, being displayed on talk radio made me trigger-happy at those remarks. So I shouldn't have reacted to them, and am sorry I did. About "no solution, of course." I do think that taking the position that the Jews are thieves who stole their homeland from the Palestinians isn't helpful. (Is anybody on earth on land that somebody else didn't have first? Legal residents winning a war they didn't start with people who rejected a partition plan is one of the more respectable ways of claiming territory.) I think forgetting the Palestinian pogroms against the Jews and the war that they started and lost and their pro-Nazi history and "buying" the PR tale that the children's deaths aren't stage-managed by the adults isn't helpful. I also think that any solution must be an extremely suspicious and self-protective one on the part of the Israelis, and will be, unless they are idiots. I think this because of the history of Palestinian attitudes toward the Jews. Seriously: what would you propose the Israelis do, aside from relocating the settlers?