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To: ItsAllCyclical who wrote (78549)	11/10/2000 5:51:46 PM
From: RWS	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 95453

Jim, OT OT OT OT The tampering is almost always done before and during the voting. Lots of cops stand in front of the polling place in black districts. Dead people vote. Ballots are added to the box. Ballots don't show up. Polls open late. People's names are left off the list. etc,etc,etc. But once the polls close the Republican and Democrat poll workers secure the box and it becomes a legal entity. The fact that Gores recount gains come from just two counties can mean either that the Republican poll workers were bought off by the Democrats to open the box and add a lot of ballots, or that the Democrat poll workers were bought off by the Republicans and turned their heads when some ballots just weren't counted. My experience is that the Republicans usually have the money to buy off the Democrats and that the Democrats are usually the ones for sale. I live in Pennsylvania. When I lived in SC years ago there was only the Democratic Party, intra-party disputes were settled by lynching, murder, home burning, legal suits usually instituted by the "machine" against mavericks, black or white. The father of one of my high school classmates, who was a lawyer and running for county commissioner against the "machine" was shot in the head while driving home from a court appearance about two miles from my home. His car veered off the road into a cotton field. The farmer who owned the field plowed his whole crop under the next morning along with any evidence. I don't know what my appropriate political description is but in my last post I mentioned that the 19,000 double punched ballots were most plausibly turned in to the poll workers for another ballot to punch correctly. I don't think any ballot can be tossed in the trash. All the ballots have to be accounted for, including the bad ones. So I think I agree with you that those ballots are not a realy issue. If you are correct and the mail in ballots show Bush the winner, then Gore will concede. It will not take any "pressure." It sounds like Bush is the man you want. I hope he delivers for you if he is elected. Regards, RWS

To: ItsAllCyclical who wrote (78549)	11/10/2000 5:55:06 PM
From: Timelord	Respond to of 95453

Jim, The hand recount has nothing to do with the uncounted 19,000 ballots. That's a completely separate issue. I've personally concluded that those 19,000 ballots are an unfortunate mistake that may cost my candidate the election, but there really isn't any remedy to it. Yup, you can't reward stupidity. Does that make you happy Jim? Actually, I thought Mike Happel voted for Gore and also argued strongly that there was nothing to be done about the "wasted" votes. There were a number of callers to a liberal talk show I listened to this morning that concluded the same thing. So please don't throw all Democrats in with Jesse Jackson, I'll promise not to treat all Republicans like they're behind Jesse Helms <ggg>. Alex

To: ItsAllCyclical who wrote (78549)	11/10/2000 6:08:09 PM
From: Big Dog	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 95453

How about W cutting a deal with Algore...let Algore continue to be VP in return for a concession. Then W can set up an office for Algore in Terlingua, Texas and give him a call every time there's a funeral. (...and just hope it ain't W's!) Or, Algore could be named Secretary of Inventions and run the patent office. I'm surprised Leno didn't make a joke of the flip flop on Gore's 'concession' phone call to W... Lot's of good material here for the comedians! On topic -- The Dog remains ten foot tall and bullet proof. I spent a day with a passle of oil service analysts this week, all is well. :) big

To: ItsAllCyclical who wrote (78549)	11/10/2000 6:24:16 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 95453

OT-Election <<I have yet to see one liberal on this thread respond to the basic fact that there were 14,000 votes double punched in Palm county in the last election. This election had heavy turnout. 19,000 is not statistically significant imho.>> Jim, I don't think I'm a liberal, however compared to many on this thread I may be. I do think you raised an interesting question. The issue is how you count the 19k and the 14k. According to a Florida democrat on Fox late last night, there were over 30,000 ballots invalidated in Palm county this election compared to 14k last time around. If he is correct, the difference in the numbers is evidently based on the distinction between all ballots incorrectly marked (>30k) and those double marked for president (app. 19k.) A cnn article seems to lend some support to this concept. cnn.com That article says that a democrat, Wexler, <<alleged that some 19,120 county ballots for the presidential race were tossed out before they were counted because more than one candidate was picked. Only 3,783 voters made that mistake on the U.S. Senate portion of the ballot.>> This seems to incicate that more than 19,120 total ballots were invalidated. I think that we will probably see a lot of instances on both sides of advocates using numbers to mislead and distort. Another instance of this is the representation that the Buchanon numbers in Palm county can be accounted for as a result of his strength there leading up to this election. If the other jurisdictions are compared, this was clearly an anomaly. I have heard numbers about how he fared there in earlier elections, however it is my understanding that that was in a republican primary. Even more interesting is his own reported take on the issue as revealed in the cnn article: Buchanan himself expressed remorse that he may have garnered votes that weren't meant for him, telling NBC's Today program this morning: "My guess is, I probably got some votes down there that really did not belong to me, and I do not feel well about that. I don't want to take any votes that do not belong to me." Finally, I believe that I read that there were 2300 overseas mail in ballots cast last year and about the same number are expected this year. W will not get all of them. If 70% of them are for him, the additional swing would be a net of about 900 votes to GW. That still leaves the vote recount as the most pivotal determinant. With regard to the early reporting of a Gore victory in Florida before the voting closed in the panhandle, Do you think this affected any Gore-Nader voters who would have voted for Gore if they thought it mattered, but instead chose to "waste" what they thought was an inconsequential vote on Nader? Having said all of that, I belive that Gore had ample chances to win this election and shouldn't complain about a bad call if the instant replay (careful recount) substantiates it. I agree that it would be inapropriate to make voter fraud inquiries in some jurisdictions and not others and with that with this election so close in so many states, the result would be a huge undertaking that would call into question the integrity of the process itself. I think this is a good reason to leave the electoral college out of the process in the future since the incentive to cheat in any small jurisdiction in an election with over 100,000,000 votes to be cast would be much smaller. I wonder what this will do to the term of whoever is elected. I'm sure that if the recount or any challenges put Gore in office, ultra-conservatives will never, ever let it rest. The same for ultra-liberals if Bush wins on the recount and the courts don't intervene. I bet that either way we are looking at a one term president here. Ed