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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Greg or e who wrote (3338)11/14/2000 12:37:03 PM
From: cosmicforce  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
and you had plenty of information in order to make a rational choice to receive forgiveness for those, shall we call them mistakes, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. You chose not to.

Apparently X didn't get enough information, because what you see as an act of will, I see as an act of reason. It is YOUR opinion and not God's that she had enough information. See, you are making a judgement that, despite your best efforts (and those of other Christians), X is willfully choosing to ignore the truth. The problem with that argument is that MOST people in the world don't find these arguments obvious. The physical evidence is weak to non-existent and the document cited is not compelling in either its virtue or truths. It is the opposite: muddled, self-referential and confusing.

I'm sure that X will be able to bring her evidence to the HYPOTHETICAL court of God and that if that thing you call God is just, it will see the obviousness of her convictions to HER. The oversight and choice is not hers, but God's. After all, God knows everything that she needs to be convinced and chose not to show those things to her. Right?



To: Greg or e who wrote (3338)11/14/2000 12:43:33 PM
From: epicure  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 28931
 
If one is rational one comes to terms every day with one's mistakes. And one makes the apologies one wants to make WHEN one makes the mistakes. Ruminating about it later makes very little sense to me. It seems silly to save that all up for death. And why should one need forgiveness for anything one does, really? Forgiveness is a human social construct, that greases the social skids. When one is leaving society permanently in death- forgiveness really only matters to the people you leave behind- it is compassionate to make them feel better, I suppose- but forgiveness makes no differences to the dying unless they BELIEVE it does. You are bounded by that belief, I am not. After all I'm still not convinced we are actually in charge of what we do. I am born with a set genetic code to parents who also have a set genetic codes and a history that makes them act the way they do. They raise me as they have been programmed to do (of course they are programmed in such a sophisticated way, it isn't analogous to computer programming- but I use the word because I can't think of a better one). They interact with me, working on my genetic platform, as every other individual acts upon me. Now believing I have free will, or at least acting like I do, allows me to take moral responsibility for what I do, and is a variable affecting my actions- so in a sense it DOES matter if I at least act like I am in control. But really, we are all limited by our genetics, our backgrounds, and by every action we have taken up until the point of our death. There is nothing to forgive in being what you are. I can always, I suppose, regret I was not someone else, or that I did not do something that I was not able to do- but why should I waste my time in that way. Things were the way they were, they were not otherwise- why regret it? Why ask for forgiveness? You mention it because it is important to you. You BELIEVE it is important. It does not have to be thus.

I lived. That will be enough for me. It's pretty magnificent really, to live and to have the opportunity to be conscious of that living. It's even BETTER to be born to relatively wealthy educated parents in one of the best places to live in the world. I can't remember what the odds of dying before your 5th birthday are in Africa- but I've already lived to 39! There is no question of what I deserved or what I didn't deserve, what I regret and what I don't regret. There is nothing that I need to forgive, and nothing I need other people to forgive me for. For social expediency and politeness I occasionally ask people's forgiveness and accept it when offered to me- but it is mere convention.