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Politics : Al Gore vs George Bush: the moderate's perspective -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Hawkmoon who wrote (7663)11/26/2000 11:13:25 PM
From: david james  Respond to of 10042
 
I wonder how much of that you really believe. You can bet that the Bush people did the stats on all those votes that were missed by the machines. And I bet they concluded that they should do everything in their power to stop those getting counted. So the best strategy to achieve that is to make all sorts of outlandish comments regarding the subjective nature of the handcounts. And many republican followers ate that up.

Personally, I don't mind Bush in office. This election was a tie in my book. And no doubt all those people in the middle of the country feel that 8 years of democrats in the White House was leaving them unrepresented. So why not give them a chance, given that the congress is close enough that nothing too stupid will get passed.

But I also feel that the backlash will damage the Republican party - as we should see in two years. You can bet that a lot of people that have normally been on the sidelines will be voting. And the minority vote is likely to be quite a factor.

And maybe in four years, we can find two people we can all respect to compete for the presidency - and hopefully never have to see these two lightweights again.



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (7663)11/27/2000 1:56:52 AM
From: KLP  Respond to of 10042
 
Analysis: Bush Urges Opponent to Stand Down

By David S. Broder
Washington Post Staff Writer
washingtonpost.com

Monday , November 27, 2000 ; Page A01

George W. Bush moved appreciably closer to winning the White House last night and immediately rattled the sensibilities of Washington's Democratic establishment by demanding he be treated as the president-elect.

Bush, who had refrained from claiming victory after drawing criticism for starting transition talks with his running mate, Richard B. Cheney, barely 48 hours after the original and achingly close Florida tallies were announced, made an even bolder assertion of authority last night just two hours after the official Florida canvass showed him ahead.

At the end of a talk couched in conciliatory language and emphasizing areas of bipartisan agreement on the national agenda, he bluntly said it was time for Vice President Gore to stand down and for the Clinton administration to meet with his representatives to prepare for the change of governments. A new Washington Post/ABC News poll suggested 60 percent of the public agrees.

The Republican nominee's formal certification as the winner of Florida's crucial electoral votes made the odds longer than ever against the vice president extracting a turnabout victory from his dogged efforts to keep recounting Florida ballots. Even two former Clinton White House counsels said his chances of prevailing are dim.

Given that reality, Republicans said Bush was merely being prudent in beginning to assemble a new government. "It's important that he [Bush] go ahead now to form an administration," said Pennsylvania's Republican Gov. Tom Ridge. "At least for the evening, and hopefully for good, we have a certified winner. He needs to be about his task."

But with more legal arguments pending before the U.S. Supreme Court and Florida judges, Democrats seized on Bush's call for office space to set up his presidential transition as an act of effrontery that would only stiffen Gore's resistance.

"This election is only going to end when a court of law says the vice president has lost," former Clinton White House chief of staff Leon D. Panetta said last night. "The Supreme Court hearing Friday will have a huge impact, and it would have been well for him [Bush] to acknowledge that, rather than act as if it were all over."

Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) fumed that Bush's comments showed "a fundamental lack of respect for the legal process." Thomas E. Mann, the senior analyst of the presidency and Congress at the Brookings Institution, said it was "doubly presumptuous" for Bush to urge Gore to drop out and to ask the Clinton administration for cooperation in preparing for his inauguration on Jan. 20.

Within moments of Bush's certification, Gore's running mate, Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman (D-Conn.) told a television audience that he and the vice president had a solemn obligation to see that uncounted or dubious ballots be reexamined for the sake of "the integrity of our self-government."

For all the rhetoric from Democrats, Gore faces long odds: He must now win court rulings in both Florida and Washington favorable to his claim that additional ballots in several Democratic-leaning counties should be counted the way he wants them counted – and then win enough votes there to overturn Bush's margin. History offers him little reason for hope: No certified Florida election result has ever been overturned in the contest procedure Gore is about to launch.

And he may struggle not to exhaust the public's patience. A poll taken last night by The Washington Post and ABC News following Bush's certification found growing public support for Gore conceding the election. By a margin of 56 percent to 39 percent, they said they were confident the Florida votes have been counted accurately.

An almost identical percentage approved of the Supreme Court agreeing to intervene in the Florida dispute, but the sentiment was reversed when they were asked if the Florida legislature should take a hand in settling it.

Lloyd Cutler, the veteran Washington attorney who served as a counsel in the Clinton White House, called Gore's chances of winning the court battle "pretty dim," but said the legal struggle will probably go on for another two weeks – until the Dec. 12 deadline for naming Florida's 25 electors.

Abner Mikva, Cutler's successor in the counsel position and a former member of the House and federal appeals court judge, agreed that "it is not going to be easy" for Gore to prevail. "He has a very limited time before the political curtain comes down, but he has to get some kind of a final decision from the courts," he added.

Panetta said Gore "has an uphill battle, and the question is if he can continue to hold onto the patience of the American people." Former senator Paul Simon of Illinois, another Democrat, said, "Things have tipped even more in Bush's direction, but he doesn't have a lock on it."

A big task for Gore in the coming days will be to keep fellow Democrats in line. Yesterday, many prominent party figures said they supported Gore's continued efforts to gain the victory, but acknowledged that their nominee faces long odds.

Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) criticized the certification process as premature but conceded, "If you don't have an accurate count in the state, he [Gore] can't win. If you do, he can win. It really comes down to that."

"There is a way he can win this," said House Democratic Caucus Chairman Martin Frost (Texas). "Whether he can do that remains to be seen."

Leahy, Frost and other Democrats said they thought their fellow-partisans would back Gore at least until Friday, when the U.S. Supreme Court has set a hearing on a Bush lawsuit, in effect trying to roll back the Florida vote count to the 930-vote margin he enjoyed a week ago. Former secretary of state James A. Baker III, leading Bush's recount effort, said that suit would not be withdrawn as long as Gore's lawyers were contesting the Florida results.

The contest proceeding will begin today in a state court in Tallahassee, where Gore's lawyers will seek to force a hand-count of thousands of ballots in Miami-Dade County. And they will seek to have the Palm Beach County canvassing board, whose nearly complete hand-counts were not included in the certified total last night, go back and count "dimpled" but not perforated ballots, as was done in neighboring Broward County. The Broward hand-count netted Gore 567 votes and Gore strategists believe he can gain enough in Palm Beach and Miami-Dade to reverse Bush's victory.

Some Democrats were plainly dubious. "There's an enormous burden on Al Gore to establish this fight should go on," said Sen. Robert Torricelli (D-N.J.). "My personal view is that it is increasingly likely the public is going to want this election brought to a close."

Republicans by the score chorused that it was time for Gore to concede. "It's time for us to have finality so the new administration can get under way," said Idaho Gov. Dirk Kempthorne (R). "We have had three major recounts and if there were any major discrepancies in the process, they would have surfaced by now. We have the same ballot in Idaho and our people are ready to accept the results."

Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-Miss.) also said Gore should give up his legal battle. "For the good of the country, I call upon the vice president to end his campaign and concede this election with the honor and dignity the American people expect," he said.

Staff writers Matthew Vita and Juliet Eilperin and polling director Richard Morin contributed to this story.

© 2000 The Washington Post



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (7663)11/27/2000 6:35:20 AM
From: ColtonGang  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 10042
 
Gore’s tough fight getting tougher



By Roberto Suro and Jo Becker
THE WASHINGTON POST

TALLAHASSEE, Fla., Nov. 26 — Moving to a new
battleground in their post-election struggle for
Florida’s 25 electoral votes, attorneys for Vice
President Gore will launch a broad court
challenge to the legitimacy of today’s new vote
count. But as Gore moves from county
canvassing boards to a courtroom here, he faces
an uphill battle, both mathematically and legally.











Republicans are
already
undertaking a
public relations
counteroffensive
that will portray
Gore as the
ultimate sore loser.

AS THE LOSER challenging the results, the burden is
on Gore to show that the election results were incorrect.
With the certified vote showing him 537 short of Texas
Gov. George W. Bush, Gore hopes he can make up the
difference in three counties, though some of those changes
may be easier to achieve than others, and lawyers from both
sides said the fight could well expand.
As Gore strategists see it, they could pick up 51 votes
from Nassau County,
where officials this
weekend suddenly
decided to throw out the
result of machine
recounts and stick with
the initial results.
Gore will also seek to convince the court to include
157 votes from Miami-Dade County that had already been
put in Gore’s column before that recount was abruptly
halted. In addition, Palm Beach could contribute about 210
votes — including those that had been counted and
submitted by the 5 p.m. deadline but were not included by
state officials because the recount was not complete, and
other votes that were counted after the deadline had
expired.
That would leave Gore with about 120 votes to go, at
which point his road becomes even tougher. To get to those
votes, Gore would have to convince the court either to
conduct a full recount of the 10,000 “undervotes” in
Miami-Dade that did not score a vote for president, or to
apply a more lenient standard to the “dimpled” ballots in
Palm Beach than did the county officials there.




Republicans don’t think he can do it. “As a legal
matter, it is impossible to overstate the importance of having
a certificate,” a Bush adviser said tonight. “The burden is
now on Gore to meet an almost impossible standard” of
proving that the certified results were wrong.

GOP FRAMES GORE LOSS
Republicans are already undertaking a public relations
counteroffensive that will portray Gore as the ultimate sore
loser. In court fights, they will argue that — however
chaotic the Florida recounts appeared — nothing happened
that would justify throwing out the work of canvassing
officials and substituting a judge’s vote tallies. And
Republican officials say they will fight back by challenging
the legality of votes that Gore gained through the counting of
indented or “dimpled” ballots.

The new phase of
legal wrangling comes
under a broadly worded
provision of Florida law
that allows any losing
candidate to challenge
the results if he thinks he
can show that he actually
won. The law gives
judges wide latitude to
fashion remedies, such
as throwing some votes
out or counting others
previously not included
in the tally.
Although court
contests are a regular
feature of local elections
across the country, there is no precedent for such a case in
the context of a presidential election. Officials in both
candidates’ camps admit that they are now venturing even
further than before into uncharted territory and that the
coming days will show how the two camps balance their
political needs with the take-no-prisoners logic of litigation.
“It seems apparent that the strategy is to use and abuse
the Florida election code to stall finality and engage in an
endless search for votes in a sea of dimpled, hanging and
other allegedly deficient chads,” said George Terwilliger, an
attorney for Bush.
Democrats contend that the legal challenges they will
file as early as Monday are intended to enhance the
legitimacy of the election. “All we’re trying to do is get the
votes counted,” said David Boies, a Gore attorney. “We’ve
said from the beginning that if they would just let the votes
get counted, however that worked out, that would
determine this election.”

U.S. SUPREME COURT’S ROLE

November 26, 2000
How might a ruling from
the nation’s highest court
change the Florida results?
NBC’s Pete Williams
reports.

Even as the contest proceeds, however, it will not be
the only action. On Friday, the U.S. Supreme Court will
consider whether the hand recounts that didn’t end up
getting Gore the votes he needed should have been included
in the final results at all.
How the justices fit into the complicated political and
legal picture is unclear because the argument has to some
extent moved beyond the question of whether the Florida
Supreme Court was right or wrong when it ordered the
secretary of state to include the results of the recount and
extend the deadline until tonight.
Another wild card is the role of the state legislature,
which is empowered under the U.S. Constitution to select
members of the electoral college “in such manner as [it] may
direct.” The leaders of the Republican-controlled legislature
have indicated that they are considering calling a special
session and possibly naming electors themselves.
Under Florida procedures, all of the legal challenges
will be filed in the circuit court for Leon County, where
Tallahassee, the state capital, is located. Boies said that it
might take until Tuesday to ship all the contested ballots and
other materials to Tallahassee, but he expressed confidence
that the process of trying the suits and hearing the inevitable
appeals before the Florida Supreme Court can be
completed in plenty of time for the electoral college
delegation to be named Dec. 12 as required under federal
law.
Although the hand recounts proved a laborious,
time-consuming process because the three members of each
canvassing board had to examine every ballot, Democrats
are confident that judges focusing only on disputed ballots
can move much faster.
“So we believe that the time is available to do the kind
of review that needs to be done,” Boies said.

EYE ON MIAMI-DADE
The fattest prize that Gore’s team will seek in the new
court suit lies in about 10,000 ballots cast in Miami-Dade
County that did not register a presidential vote when they
were put through tabulating machines. Democratic attorneys
argue that hundreds of those ballots are partially perforated
or indented punch cards that would be counted as Gore
votes when examined by human eyes.
“We’ll be asking the court to be sure that those votes
are at least counted once,” Boies said. “They were cast by
the voters, and no one has ever counted those, and no one,
at this point, can tell you who the voters voted those votes
for.”
With a full recount
in Miami-Dade,
said Gore senior
adviser Greg
Simon, ‘we would
easily have a net
gain to win the
election.’

Nonetheless, Gore advisers are confident the votes
would come their way. With a full recount in Miami-Dade,
said Gore senior adviser Greg Simon, “we would easily
have a net gain to win the election.”
A senior Republican attorney, however, noted that an
estimated 1.5 percent of the presidential vote nationwide fell
into the same category as the 10,000 “undervotes” in
Miami-Dade.
“Sizable numbers of undervotes are regrettable, but
they happened all over the place in every election and they
certainly are no basis for asking a judge to step in and
change the results,” the lawyer said.
Republicans will argue that the 157 ballots already
reviewed have no validity because they came in a hand
recount that never got off the ground, the attorney said.
The Democrats’ other major target, Palm Beach
County, may require a double-sided legal approach. On the
one hand, they will argue to have the state tally include the
gains for Gore from the hand recount. On the other hand,
Boies said they are considering whether to also argue that
the hand recount did not apply the proper standards for
counting dimpled ballots.


Latest MSNBC coverage of the dispute

Gore attorneys believe they would have picked up
more than 500 additional votes in Palm Beach - enough to
win the day — if the board there had used the same
standards as the canvassing board in Broward County,
where Gore picked up 367 votes on its recount of dimpled
ballots. Simon said the number could have been as high as
800.
The danger in this approach is that the Republicans
have already threatened in public that they will
counterchallenge the results in Broward if the Democrats
open the subject of dimpled ballots. The Democrats would
have to gamble their hard-won gains in Broward for the
chance of having a judge look at ballots from Palm Beach
that have already been examined and rejected by the
canvassing board there as having no discernible votes.

Staff writers Dana Milbank, Thomas B. Edsall, Ceci
Connolly and Susan Schmidt contributed to this report.



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (7663)11/27/2000 7:17:12 AM
From: long-gone  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 10042
 
That's it! I'm heading to Florida!
by DC Bryan - Posted: 11.24.00
...I saw a re-run of Lieberman's speech. I cannot believe what I just heard!! This DemocRAT basTURD just demonized one of the most fundamental rights that Americans have... their 1st Amendment Rights of free speech and assembly.

These pathetic SOB's have just pushed my last button! My girlfriend and I are loading up the car, putting spray paint and posterboard in my car and DRIVING NON STOP to Florida!! We leave at 1800 hours CST

This is it! I cannot stand by and let a few hundred protesters be attacked as a "mob" or "disrupters." I say, "Screw work on Monday, I may not be back, but I am heading to FL right now to protect our most precious rights." If it were not for the 2nd Amendment, we would not have the first Amendment!!

I am outraged and I hope that my first vanity post will find you incensed also, and make you decide to throw some clothes in the car, grab a pillow, tent and sleeping bag, etc., and get your butts down to Florida!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2nd Report

We just got pulled over for speeding on I-40. The State Trooper said that with the half dozen fatalities this weekend, and the rain, they are vigorously enforcing speed laws across the state. (They are everywhere.)

The State Trooper asked us where we were going and we told him, "To Florida to protest in person the injustice that is going on down there by suppressing the military vote and especially the injustice and damage the Demoncraps are doing to our Constitution in the last 48 hours." I proceeded to tell him what we did and why we are driving all night to FL and now..... Get this:

The State Trooper handed back Brandi's driver's license and looked at his watch and said, " I appreciate what you guys are doing and wish I could go with you. Follow me and I will escort you for almost an hour. We will do 85 and you'll be all right, until I pull off the exit. I suggest you slow down after that exit."

Brandi and I are right now behind an Arkansas State Trooper doing about 87 M.P.H.!! This is one of the best feelings I have ever had. This guy almost shed a tear when he took in and realized what we said we were doing and why. I wish he could escort us all the way!! This is great!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3rd Report
[Saturday Morning]

We are leaving Tallahassee now to drive to Broward Co. We drove around Tallahassee and saw some activity this morning. We borrowed a big American Flag and a yellow "Don't Tread on Me" flag from my buddy in Atlanta. They are both on very strong, long steel flagpoles to stick through the sun-roof.

We saw some activity and a couple of Free Republic signs and stopped and said hi and told them of our ongoing adventure. They told us to stick around, but we are convinced to head to Broward tonight. (I personally want to kick Carol Roberts in the butt, (but I fear I may kill a gerbil.)

We are doing fine, well fed, well rested and now armed with flags and a better set of stencils and paper printed out by my buddy from Free Republic. And most cool is this Sprint digital service is all over down here. We stopped by a Gateway store and got a battery charger for her laptop that can plug into the car. Brandi got us to Atlanta, I am going hells-bells to Broward now.

Well, we are on the road again! Good luck, and get your butts out of that chair, grab your spouse/kids, then a flag/sign and go voice your opinion before Gore and Propaganda Minister Joe LIEberman takes that right away from
you. Either stand now together or we will hang separately!!

Chris and Brandi

sierratimes.com



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (7663)11/27/2000 8:47:42 AM
From: George Coyne  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 10042
 
...that Bush has made every attempt to block a complete vote in Florida?

Yes, this is exactly the type of misreporting that is generally occurring in the media, especially here in the New York area.