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To: patim who wrote (80694)12/4/2000 2:14:27 PM
From: SliderOnTheBlack  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 95453
 
patim; those are not the only two possibilities...

Cultural values & traditions are the 3rd.

Go to Miami & look at what Carribean Blacks have done vs. American Blacks in the business districts ? Go to New York city. Incredible differnces in both business & residential districts. The Carribean blacks took what was decimated in the Liberty City riots of Miami & abandoned by American Blacks & rebuilt it into a vibrant community. This story has been repeated in innumerable US Cities.

Compare African students at US Universities to American Blacks.

Compare the wave of Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian immigrants and their climb of success economically & educationally in a very short period of time ... and don't tell me that Vietnamese immigrants faced "less" discrimination than "blacks" - not with Viet Nam and they came in the 70's & 80's when memories were fresh.

Sometimes; cultures & people must take personal responsiblity for their own success and failures.

It's about choices and values - period.

There are cultural differences, differences in value's and in traditions... we can spin and deny & try to keep selling "white guilt" - but; there are millions of White American's of whose ancestors didn't own slaves & came from oppressed historical backgrounds.

Every continent on this planet & every people on this earth have built some degree of cultural success & tasted economic progress except one... and there are too many Black Countries outside of obviously oppressed So Africa that have never flourished. We talk about Black on Black crime in America; one should look to Africa and its incredible wealth of natural resources to see what real Black on Black "crime" does... are we the problem there as well ? Should we be the solution ?

40 acres and a mule wouldn't work; affirmative action hasn't and won't work... only personal responsiblity will.

When blacks make a decision to look to a J.C. Watts, or to an Alan Keynes for direction & values instead of Jesse Jackson, Maxine Waters & Al Sharpton - then perhaps they'll control their own destiny & achieve cultural success that they continue to somehow think someone has both stolen from them & owes them...

By the way; when is "White Guilt" supposed to end ? in another 50 years, 200, 500 ?

I am not a racist; but merely a guiltless realist... and it wouldn't matter if they were purple; they control their own destiny and they have been and continue to be; culturally - their own worst enemy.

They & only they as a culture; internally hold the solution.



To: patim who wrote (80694)12/4/2000 2:17:29 PM
From: Sweet Ol  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 95453
 
I think there are a number of other possibilities to consider. You make the problem too simple, it is very complicated. No issue involving human beings is ever binomial. By the way, it is poor form to shout and it is silly to do it when you a saying something that is not well thought out.

Best to all,

John



To: patim who wrote (80694)12/4/2000 2:31:25 PM
From: ItsAllCyclical  Respond to of 95453
 
>> patim; those are not the only two possibilities... <<

Slider I agree with your points, but would also add that I really feel much of the wealth distribution comes down to the rich and powerful favoring their friends, family and peers first and foremost. Is that racism or human nature?

We seem far too obsessed with mandating outcomes vs leveling the playing field of opportunity in the early years. I don't think mandating outcomes works in a capitalist society.

In 200 years we probably will have made great progress in regards to racism, but I'll bet most of the nations wealth will still be owned by white men even though we might be 25% of the population by then.

Will we then conclude that racism is stronger than ever? That it must be "hiding" is the subconscious of every white person?

The next saga of the racism debate will have to start to address these questions vs looking for simple answers.



To: patim who wrote (80694)12/4/2000 2:56:54 PM
From: upanddown  Respond to of 95453
 
patim

I think it is wrong to portray American blacks as a monolithic group oppressed by society. It ignores the many millions of blacks who have moved firmly into the middle classes and beyond. Why haven't these people been oppressed? Simple...they are smarter. Smart blacks make it, dumb ones don't and that is true for any ethnic group.
The best example is probably Japanese-Americans. During WWII, they were thrown into internment camps in one of the more shameful episodes in American history. They encountered tremendous discrimination after the war. From that low point, they have become the American ethnic group with the highest educational attainment and the highest average income. I don't think it is coincidence that they also have the highest measured intelligence. Its all gray matter.

John



To: patim who wrote (80694)12/4/2000 3:02:05 PM
From: isopatch  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 95453
 
OT/So anybody who criticizes Jesse is a racist? Gimmie a break,lol:

Before you start bashing me or the author, try reading what she said.

She IS black herself. So you criticism is absurd.

Isopatch



To: patim who wrote (80694)12/4/2000 4:29:10 PM
From: anyer  Respond to of 95453
 
You're right; blacks continue to operate under socialism while the rest of us sink or swim under capitalism.
Gore and his cronies want to keep Blacks dependent and maintain their sure vote.

The Entitlement Mob[old,blacks, all who take from others]is the fastest growing segment of society. It's beginning to look like a 401 O[o is for out of here] is the only "safe" bet for retirement. Of course safe is a relative term; but with our citizens tolerating more corruption while other countries crave less,the winds are indeed changing.

Regards,

Anyer



To: patim who wrote (80694)12/4/2000 4:43:48 PM
From: CpsOmis  Respond to of 95453
 
VERY OT
Ok, I'll bite...

<<<<DO YOU BELIEVE THE BLACKS ARE INFERIOR WITH SMALLER BRAINS OR IS IT NOT CLEAR THAT THERE IS SOMETHING TERRIBLY WRONG WITH A SYSTEM WHICH HAS KEPT THE DOWN??? THOSE ARE THE ONLY 2 POSSIBLITIES.
<<<<

No, these are NOT the only 2 possibilities...in fact, IMNSHO, they have been kept down by a sub-culture which denies both literary and cultural education as the way out/up, becuase to follow that path would be to emulate the despised white oppressor....

So, you have the sub-cultural pressure to NOT be an "Uncle-Tom". You have the sub-cultural message that it is OK to be a "victim", along with an acceptance of taking the "easy" way out, e.g. sex, drugs and a boom-box, way of life.

Add to that an inherent "low self-esteem" for the culture at large driven by the external self-aggrandizing white culture that enjoys feeling superior by looking at another groups failures.

Had an epiphany a few years back, while playing with free "net-meeting" type software. Couldn't get my video to work, but met a very intelligent, fun lady from Bristol England. Enjoyed talking for about an hour, when she suggested we exchange pictures. It was then and only then I realized she was black. Luuuv those British accents! Point is.....people that are in the lower echelon of society are there because of a lack of education, institutional as WELL AS cultural.

And here in America, black culture has been destroyed by years of slavery, oppression, bigotry, welfare, and the current "soft bigotry of low expectations" What a great, if not correct propaganda term btw!

It's great to demand "personal responsibility". I do as well. To say "there is a SYSTEM that has kept them down" is pandering. But, while you must keep an historical perspective while looking to the future, it is time to take a zero tolerance attitude towards pandering to the "victim" mentality.

Look at the Chinese in America. They got screwed worse than the blacks, but, like the Eveready bunny, just keep working, and working and.....don't bitch about it.

Cosmo



To: patim who wrote (80694)12/5/2000 12:47:46 AM
From: cnyndwllr  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 95453
 
OT patim. You've put your finger on one of the greatest problems facing our country. If we continue to diverge in terms of income and success on racial and ethnic lines, with blacks, Mexican Americans, and American Indians lagging behind and yet becoming an even greater % of our population, we will be in real trouble.

The problem is that while the facts show this divergence, because of our ingrained and well intentioned reluctance to assign any of it to racial differences, we generally look only to external influences rather than racial differences for an explanation. For example, if you look at African Americans, we have no difficulty with the fact that they overcame blatant racism in athletics, music and the arts. In fact, if you are reluctant to see the native gifts that many African Americans possess in those endeavors, you might well have to ask yourself if you are possibly racist. If we reverse the question and ask why African Americans, on average, have not been as successful in education and science and other fields, any suggestion of racial differences is generally met with abhorrence, with the exception of the reaction of those who enjoy the thought of racial superiority; their own, of course.

So what does this have to do with the issues you raise? It has to do with the concept of looking at racial differences in physical and mental abilities. If we refuse to consider the possibilty that there are genetic tendencies among races just as there are among families, then we are restricted to the search for explanations in terms of cultural differences, racial barriers, and societal stereotyping that is self fulfilling. My point is that we need to look at all possibilities and that to do so is not racist.

If you are familiar with "right brained" thinking vs "left brained" thinking, you are aware that in today's technological and scientific society left brained thinkers are rewarded. This was probably not the case for many of the past thousands of years. Our most successful ancestors were hunters and gatherers who were more likely strong right brained thinkers. It may be that among African Americans and American Indians the strongest right brained thinkers were the more successful and survived, and that those tendencies still remain strong in them. Right brained thinkers are generally more intuitive, artistic and spontaneous; valuable traits which rarely convert to strong economic success today but which would better keep you alive in many situations which commonly existed in the past.

These strong abilities are poorly measured through IQ tests. In fact, Kodiak bull makes an excellent point with regard to the question of intelligence. We can not really measure it with IQ tests. Average IQ often hides true genius since exceptional talent in one area is often diluted with low talent in another, and very smart people, who may think slower than duller people who are paced to think faster, are often overwhelmed by the time constraints. More importantly, we cannot even agree on a definition for intelligence that makes sense, much less test for it. The truest measure of intelligence that I know is the ability to DO things, not simply answer questions. Many people who score highly on IQ tests are not capable of building, creating or teaching things, even though they can retain knowlege and divulge it apropriatly when prompted. The tests are often poorly thought out and you can actually out think the testers. For instance, one of the questions on the verbal IQ test many years ago was "Who wrote the Illiad?" I think that had a little socioeconomic influence built into it. Another was a question that, simplified, asked "If it takes one man 2 hours to do a task, how long will it take 2 men to do that task?" Among the possible answers was "1 hour" and "cannot tell from the information given." The "correct" answer was "1 hour" so if you thought to yourself, "What's the task, fixing a watch or moving a 300 pound rock 20 ft" and answered "cannot tell from the info given" you were not as smart as the other guy.

What IQ tests are good at is measuring our ability to do well in school. In a sense it has been a circular pattern since if success is the ability to do well in school, and if that is an accurate measure of intelligence, then those tests do measure intelligence. Unfortunately, although I am agnostic I think I can say with confidence that if you put Jesus and the 12 disciples in most subjectively graded classes, the 12 disciples would all get A's and Jesus wouldn't. I don't think that telling the professor what the professor told you is a true measure of intelligence. It may be a good measure of memory, hard work and conformity, but not of creativity, insight and talent.

I find myself agreeing with many who have posted that other minorities have overcome racism and predjudice to succeed in this country while some of our minorities, as a group, have not. It may well be that some races and ethnicities have stronger talents in many areas than caucasians and asians do, and weaker talents in other areas. If that is so, it is undoubtedly true that the weaknesses are in areas of ability that are generally better rewarded economically, on average, in today's society. It's not a matter of better or worse, it may just be a matter of slightly different tendencies. One thing for sure, if we never allow ourselves to consider all the possibilities we may never know, and we will never be able to address the real issues and solutions if that is where the explanation lies.

Finally, I have to ask, are we so much better off with our high incomes and our highly successful competitive lifestyles. As I sit here typing I am listening to a CD with a Carribean beat that brings to mind a lazy, white sanded beach with a blue green sea lapping at my feet. I recently spent a few days in southwestern alaska where the native indian population is known as underperforming and underachieving. This is a place where bald eagles are as abundant as christmas ornamants on the trees and where with very little effort you can live off elk, venison, bear, crab, halibut, salmon etc, WITHOUT having to work hard to do it. Why anyone would trade that for a 50 week a year job or profession is a real puzzle. I must admit though, that while I'm not sure what success is and I'm not sure I've got it, I do believe that there are a lot of people in this country who don't have it and anything we can do to find out why and try to help them out should not be overlooked, not even for the noblest of reasons. Ed