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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: TimF who wrote (1305)	1/16/2001 10:13:42 PM
From: hobo	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Can you point to a direct victim of atrocities committed by a major religion that is still alive to get paid? ask a simple question and get.... a looooong answer... (it fits the crime). chapter 1. many of the victims of the tobacco industry are no longer alive, so i do not think being alive is a requisite. do you think they would be alive if they were not victims ? more than one or two specific individual, i think we have a case where restitution is due to entire groups of people given the manner in which they were treated during the time of colonization in Latin America. In the USA there has been a separation of Church and State which worked well for the Church since to a large extent it was the government, not the church who made specific decisions that violated specific treaties with the indians. more recent cases ? very well... ______________________________ Church admits truth about atrocities War crimes: Priests defy state to end denial Links, reports and background: more on Kosovo guardianunlimited.co.uk ________________________________________ In the case of most Latin America, the Church was directly involved in decisions that simply took land from the natives, torture them and for nearly 500 years they kept them oppressed. this is a small window that will give you a glimpse of what hundreds of thousands of people suffered over the years. a few examples in Latin America: you want an individual ? very well... This is an interview with with Rigoberta Menchu, a native from Guatemala who won the Nobel Peace prize: _____________________________________________ indians.org <snip> On October 16, 1992, the Committee of the Nobel Peace Prize will reveal whether, for the first time in its history, it will grant the Prize to an indigenous candidate. An indigenous woman, whos eyes have born witness to cruelest actions in human memory. At twenty years of age, Rigoberta Menchu had already lost her father, her mother and a brother as a result of the indiscriminate violence exercised by the armed forces of Guatemala. Her father, Vicente Menchu, along with other indigenous, was burned alive by the army when he participated in the peaceful takeover of the Spanish embassy. The embassy was taken over in hopes of calling attention to the plundering of land suffered by the indigenous and to the military presence in the community. A few months later, her mother became yet another victim of the repression. She was kidnapped, raped, tortured for several days and exhibited publicly in her community. Anders Riis-Hansen: What began your struggle for the defense of the indigenous and human rights? Rigoberta Menchu: I was born in a family where Papa struggled for 22 years for the piece of land where we were born. Mama, as a midwife, attended 90% of the pregnant women, sick people and malnourished children. Because of her role as a healer and a midwife, she believed in our Mayan gods. I would trade any prize in the world to know that my Papa and mother had returned. They helped me to determine my life In addition, I have a brother in a clandestine cemetary with his three children and his wife. Someday, I would like him to have a dignified grave in the land where Papa dreamed that we would be buried. Moreover, I have met so many people that are not alive today; it is in their memory that one lives. Q: There is a great difference between the hard and humble life that you lived in Guatemala and the life that you live now, visiting presidents and famous governors. Are you afraid that you will lose your link to the people of Guatemala? A: Of course, for a woman who never spoke Spanish and never had the opportunity to do more than cut cotton on the large plantations, there are definitely many moments when one feels strange. But lose the links, no. I think that if one's role doesn't correspond to what one says, if one's life doesn't correspond to what one preaches, if one is not true to one's people, someone else will come as a substitute. ____________________________________________ Oppresion in Mexico: (Chiapas and other states) btw... did you know that President Salinas brought down the separation between Church and State that had prevailed since the mid 1800's ? what has the church done about all this ? eco.utexas.edu or about this ? : (After about 500 years of influence ?) at worst, someone should answer due to say.. "lying about objectives?" An estimated 75 million native people were killed during the first 200 years of colonisation, while 80 percent of the 41.7 million indigenous people in the Americas today live in poverty. what did the church do ? stand by and aided the faithful get immensely rich ? indians.org ____________________________________________ the church, in their "promises" express that they should love your neighbor and all the rest... right ? well... Torture was enthusiastically applied by early Church officials for three reasons: (Spanish Inquisition) To force confessions or secret information from those accused of heresy or witchcraft, whether guilty or innocent; To discourage dissent and intellectual freedom; and To persuade Jews, Muslims, and other non-believers to accept Christianity. (WARNING NOT VERY PLEASANT**) geocities.com

To: TimF who wrote (1305)	1/16/2001 10:59:24 PM
From: hobo	Respond to of 82486

There is some question of the justice of the case. When neither the people who committed the actions nor the victims of the actions or their close associates have been alive for a long long time there is some question of who should be forced to make reparations and who deserves reparations. plenty to chose from. Chapter 2 sun.ac.za The Christian era began in the New World in 1492. The Spanish introduced a different moral code, baptism, the Mass, new concepts of good and evil, the idea of Heaven and Hell, the Virgin and saints, a new constitution of the family and the concept of the crucified Christ. The arrival of the Church in the New World terminated human sacrifice and cannibalism. Christian concepts suffused native art, Indians were forced to occupy a secondary position in the social structure and eventually became servants of the Spanish king and members of the Church’s “flock.” It is important that students recognize that the history of the Catholic Church in Latin America was not merely an adjunct to the conquest or a side issue in the later independence movement but, rather that the history of the conquest and the history of the Church, itself are completely intertwined. The Inquisition in Spain became a reign of terror in the New World. Temples were razed and idols were destroyed as aboriginal cultures were viewed as manifestations of the devil. An examination of the history of the Church in Latin America is necessary for today’s student to understand liberation sympathy in Latin America since the 1960’s. The student must understand the long history of the Church in that area. She must understand the role of the Church in the eras of the conquest and independence. She must be familiar with some of the dominant personalities of those periods, the treatment of the Indians during and after those periods and why the Church is so heavily involved in liberation today. In 1640, after Portugal won independence from Spain, Philip IV granted the Jesuits’ request to arm the Indians. Under the command of the Jesuits the Indians became a formidable fighting force. In fact, in the ensuing struggle between Portugal and Spain, the Indian force often became the determining factor in Spanish victories. Without this force, great parts of Uruguay, Bolivia and Paraguay might even now belong to Brazil. With the Paulista and Mameluco threat removed, the Jesuits were able to return with their Indian converts, but they were to encounter a series of new difficulties which grew, ironically, out of the success of the reduction missions and the tendency of the priests to overprotect their native wards. The success of the communal reductions resulted from tight organization. Each mission was under the rule of two priests who were responsible for discipline, development and welfare. There was no capital punishment although flogging inflicted for such offenses as drunkeness. The was worst punishment at these missions was life imprisonment, meted out only in the severest cases. The reductions were divided into the Fields of God and the Fields of Man. The Fields of God were worked by all of the Indians together. The Fields of Man, however, were parceled out for individual use by the Indians. The crops produced in the Fields of God were owned by the commune, whereas the crops gathered in the Fields of Man were kept by the individual farmers. All Indians on the reductions received pots and pans, needles, clothing and other necessities. The quantity of these goods increased as the collective wealth of the community grew. <snip> The government of the reduction was carried out by elected representatives. Again, this limited democracy did not stir admiration, but rather jealousy of the privileged Creoles. The Creole haciendas tended to be poorly managed, relying on slave labor. The reductions were perceived as political and economic threat and eventually were outlawed and the Jesuits were forced to leave New Granada. Once the Jesuits gathered the Indians into the relative security and isolation of the reductions, the process of conversion and reinforcement of Christian Doctrine took place. Sometimes the Jesuits resorted to trickery and appealed to the Indians’ idolatry to reinforce Christianity. In Paraguay, the priests exploited the Indian’s idolatry by standing inside of a wooden statue and shouting orders to them.