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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: E who wrote (3834)	1/29/2001 11:48:00 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

The idea of unions is a very fine one. Like most things, there are problems with the execution of this very good idea. But there must be something to check the power of business over the individual- you could say that government- with things like OSHA and many of it's other labor bureaucracies- has made unions unnecessary- but always remember it was money from unions and union lobbying that bought those protections for US workers. Without money pooled together- labor would not have a seat at the government table- and business would buy all the seats- leaving the worker out in the cold. Now I realize that some people who feel that a fetus is precious, may not think much of protecting the safety of a working man or woman(because it is too expensive, because it makes American business less competitive blah blah blah). But for me- the already born should get priority. And all our safety regulations (although expensive) save many lives and many many more workers from crippling injuries. I will always be grateful to unions for providing a necessary counterweight to big business.

To: E who wrote (3834)	1/29/2001 11:52:41 AM
From: Lane3	Respond to of 82486

The problem as I see it is that labor has a right to organize against the expanding power of employers, and nobody has come up with a better idea about how to accomodate that need. Any ideas? E, didn't I ask you specifically not to get me started on unions??? It's harder to be civil on an empty stomach. Lunch first. Unions later. Karen

To: E who wrote (3834)	1/29/2001 2:57:21 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

You object to unions merely because so many segments of them have fallen into crookedness? picky picky picky. Actually, no. My objections are much more organic. I consider crookedness the most benign of the problems with unions. labor has a right to organize against the expanding power of employers Your choice of language here is interesting. By "labor" do you mean employees or unions? My interest is in the treatment of employees. Unions sprang up to protect employees from bosses. They were a means to an end. Over time, IMO, unions have become corrupt in not just the crookedness sense of the word but in that they have been diverted in purpose to serve themselves as an entity, too often at the expense of the employees they were created to represent. There has been a build-up of law and practice around unions over the years to the extent that they've become the third leg of the stool. You have management, unions and employees, all with different but overlapping interests. The problem is that, in negotiations, only management and unions get a seat at the table. Employees have no legal rights in this equation. Employees want to talk to management about various issues but can't because, by law, they can only do that through their unions. I think that stinks. E, I really can't find much energy for this discussion. X's response to your post was the first time I recall anyone speaking up for unions on SI. Maybe it's because we're all owners here. Maybe it's because it's more fun to talk about Clinton's peccadillos. Maybe it's because, as you say, unions are out of style right now. I have no personal interest in it, or at least in a few weeks I won't. When you first asked the question, the old war horse in me heard the bugle, but lunch has mellowed me. I think there may be still a place for unions to represent common laborers but their representation of knowledge workers needs to be largely dismantled in favor of the market place with an assist from the government. For now at least. Karen