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To: Level Head who wrote (121)	2/18/2001 4:32:45 AM
From: Raymond Duray	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 51713

LH, Your little thought experiment has already been worked out in the former Belgian Congo. The traffic lights soon ceased to work after the Belgian managers were forced to go home. Soon thereafter, the copper wiring was stolen out of the lights so some scavenger could earn a meal. I understand your point, and I've no argument with it, other than to suggest it is irrelevant to discussion that has been raised by Toscano and to which I'd hoped to add another point of view with the Quammen essay, that of the ceaseless degradation of the planet by intentional and unintended human interventions in the ecological give and take caused by our prodigious and pointless numbers. What exactly is your point? I really think that we might wish to discuss the intentional grounding of a Chinese (as I recall) tanker with thousands of dehydrated Kurds, running ashore not far from Nice, France. This human detritus, or hapless flotsam and jetsam, is what we are concerned about when we are discussion over-population. It is not merely impacting the third world, where it is the greatest threat to the resource base, it is being spread by gangsters, criminals and coyotes to the first world at an alarming rate. Here's where it hits home. I live in Central Oregon, a thousand miles from the Mexican border. Last week, I discovered gang markings on a ranch sign 20 miles outside of town. Two days later, I found an old sedan cruising my property, and when I stopped the two swarthy fellows who were perusing the property, they said in very bad English that they were looking for work. They'd never knocked at a door, but they were looking in the windows. I had to go outside to confront them. So, let's get on track Level Head. The problem is too many people. Waaayy too many poor people who see honest folks like me as someone to victimize. The problem isn't hypothetical like your pointless Marcus Garvey type fantasy and it isn't at all suitable to me to have you come out with a veiled insult to another race. I admit to being disappointed with your post. Best, Ray

To: Level Head who wrote (121)	2/18/2001 9:57:29 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 51713

I am not at all clear what your point is. Africa, and it's people, have had a number of problems- many, but not all, caused by the exploitation of Africa by the 1st world, and the horrible legacy of colonization. When you think of the first world you see "progress" and technology and you think "better". And you think that we could do the same number on Africa we've done here. But when you realize the alarming rate of consumption in the 1st world you quickly realize it is not sustainable. It is a pyramid scheme that would not be necessary if we had remained tied to the land in less technological groups. We are animals outstripping and destroying our environment. I would argue that we, in the 1st world, are maladapted. I do not believe our species will survive. I do not know how it will end- but badly, I suspect. When you look at hunter gatherers or primitive people, you should see people with skills and knowledge we do not have. These are people who can make everything themselves. Frequently they have a very high level of knowledge of their environment that takes a life time to achieve. These people are not stupid- far from it- they are probably more intelligent that we are- an interesting thesis I read in the book Guns, Germs and Steel. This is his theory: In the West, selective pressures have been reduced. Pretty much all people breed and survive. In primitive cultures intelligence is still extremely important for survival. There are fewer resources, medicine is poorer, so those not fit, die. In the West selective pressures have been off our breeding populations for decades. Interesting isn't it? The essential problem is our lifestyle is not sustainable in the 1st world. We are greedy and we are ruining our planet and I don't think we are going to do anything about it. SO let's say you get transplanted to the Amazonian rain forest to live with the People of the Forest. How do you think you would do?