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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Dayuhan who wrote (6455)	2/25/2001 9:27:59 AM
From: Solon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Yes, I know Steve; Repetitive can be frustrating and annoying, and can p-ss people right off <ggg>. You don't need to be so subtle! :) I was trying to lay a foundation of agreement so that a legitimate argument could take place. To that end, the point you have brought up would have interfered with my immediate goal of cutting off the ring. It is, however, a great point! What is it? A catamaran? A cruiser?! Oh, sorry...now, about that rape! You know that old saw: "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still?" I am too tired to talk about anything right now. I'm gonna get some sleep and dream of sailing--sailing...sailing........

To: Dayuhan who wrote (6455)	2/25/2001 6:05:48 PM
From: TimF	Respond to of 82486

An appalling number of pregnancies in teenaged girls are fathered by men over 20. When an adult seduces a child,isn't there a level of coercion implicitly involved? A level of coercion perhaps but except in cases where force or threat of force is used it isn't really rape. Ofcourse sometimest the threat can be subtle. The girl might feel she will be hurt if she says no or resists without the man ever hurting her or showing a weapon or making an explicit threat. The teenager in the cases you discribe might be said to have been taken advantage of but not raped (except in the legal case that is statutory rape). There can be coercion in these situations, but if it is purely seduction I would not say they where corerced or raped. If a 16 year old girl is seduced by her sixteen year old boyfriend then it is consensual, but if everything happens the same way with her 21 year old boyfriend it is rape? I don't think so. If a woman "participates" on the basis of information that turns out to be false, that leaves her in a pretty difficult place, especially if she is young and far from secure. If we, as a society, are going to declare that she must bear and support that child because she participated in its conception (note that the other participant is not likely to face any compulsory participation in bearing the burden), shouldn't we as a society also contribute at least the level of support - and not only financial support - that the girl could reasonably have expected from the child's father? I agree it leaves her in a dificult place and it is very unfortunate. We should have compassion for people in that situation. Should we support them finacially? Well what exactly do you mean? If you mean supporting people finacially with voluntary charity then I am all for it. If you mean supporting her with welfare payments then I see good things and bad things about. The positive thing is that a girl or young woman in a very tough spot it helped out. Also in addition to helping her we help the child, it might be less likely to be aborted, and also if the mother gets good food and medical care the baby will be healthier. One negative is welfare payments are basicially robbing from some (through taxes) to give to others. Another negative is that welfare payments have historically resulted in more single parent families. I do think that we should encourage girls that get pregnant too young to give up the child for adoption esp. in cases where they do not get a lot of support from the father and from their family. I think we should try and find the fathers when we can and they should be obligated to support their children. Tim

To: Dayuhan who wrote (6455)	2/26/2001 8:25:32 AM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

shouldn't we as a society also contribute at least the level of support - and not only financial support - that the girl could reasonably have expected from the child's father? Steven, I was with you when you talked about the way men lie to get sex. And how that can leave a woman in a difficult place. I'm not sure what you mean about what you and I and the rest of society are supposed to do about it. Would you elaborate, please? Karen