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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: thames_sider who wrote (8243)3/13/2001 12:15:13 PM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
I don't think the disagreement on Scandinavia is too strong. I think I was reacting to this:

.....clearly you've never met a real social- welfare state leftist at all.

Try going to Sweden sometime, or maybe Denmark, and Norway too. Note that these very welfare-state countries do encourage entrepreneurism and free enterprise. Note that they also have exceptionally low poverty, friendly and healthy people, clean environments, and regularly top international tables as the most desirable countries in the world to live.


Actually, in Sweden, certainly, it was the weakness of the SDP that prevented further nationalization of industry. So although what you said is not false, the implication that the Left is particularly entrepreneurial and so forth seemed a bit funny, and it quite possible that the inability to socialize further saved these countries. (Also, they are relatively homogeneous, did not suffer a lot of destruction during the War, and maintained relatively small defense establishments.)

Part of what corroborates this impression that they were saved from out- and- out socialism, for me, is the comparison of PPP data, although somewhat stale (sometimes it is hard to find up to date stuff that is free on the Web). As it is, although per capita GDP in, say, Sweden is within a few thousand dollars of the US, the PPP is closer to Spain's, which is a relatively poor country.

I will take take up the other points in a while, if I think to get back to them......



To: thames_sider who wrote (8243)3/13/2001 12:33:09 PM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
This comports with my understanding of the role of Christian Democratic Parties in Europe:

In the arena of party politics, conservatism in western Europe is generally represented by two or more parties, ranging from the liberal centre to the moderate and extreme right. Three types of party may be discerned: agrarian parties (particularly in Scandinavia), Christian democratic parties, and conservative parties linked strongly with big business interests and sometimes with a markedly nationalistic outlook. Such categories are very general and are not mutually exclusive.

Among parties of the right, the Christian democratic tradition has the longest continuity, the predecessors of contemporary parties having emerged during the first half of the 19th century to represent supporters of the church and the monarchy against liberal elements. Especially after World War I, business interests became a third important element. The clerical interest is strongest in the Democrazia Cristiana (DC; the Christian Democrat Party) of Italy, which has dominated government since 1945. Through this party, Catholicism has set limits on policy concerning such church-related matters as divorce and contraception; in regard to other social questions, however, the party has never presented a coherent policy, largely because it comprises little more than an alliance of disparate and often conflicting interest groups.

In Germany, a country divided between Catholics and Protestants, the church plays a far less significant role in the main conservative party, the Christlich-Demokratische Union (CDU; the Christian Democratic Union). After 1950, following debate within the party over economic and social questions, advocacy of a free-enterprise economy coupled with a strong commitment to maintain and improve social insurance and other welfare provisions became established policy. The conservative temper of the political climate in Germany since the beginning of economic recovery may be judged from the fact that since the early 1950s the main opposition party, the Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands (SPD; the Social Democrats), has progressively eliminated the socialist content of its program, a congress at Bad Godesberg (1959) in fact going so far as to champion the profit motive.

France provides an exception to the general pattern of the representation of moderate conservative opinion by a Christian democratic party; the closest equivalent has been the Catholic, right-wing Mouvement Républicain Populaire, which by the late 1960s had become little more than a political club. Instead, a large proportion of conservatives in France has supported Gaullist groups such as the Union pour la Défense de la République. Gaullist conservatism has been markedly nationalistic, involving assumptions concerning French leadership of a united Europe and emphasizing tradition, order, and the regeneration of France. Gaullists espouse divergent views on domestic social issues, however, as do non-Gaullist groups such as the Centre National des Indepéndants et Paysans. The number of conservative groups, their lack of stability, and their tendency to be identified with local issues defy simple categorization. Conservatism in France, however, as in Italy and Germany, has been the dominant political force since World War II.


britannica.com