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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: thames_sider who wrote (9387)	3/22/2001 12:23:23 PM
From: epicure	Respond to of 82486

I have read that because of all the new matter found there may be enough matter in the universe to hold it together and cause it to implode at some point in the very very distant future. But I know Cosmic knows a lot more about this than I do.

To: thames_sider who wrote (9387)	3/22/2001 1:46:32 PM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Firstly, according to current physics time was not there before the start of the universe - time began with the Big Bang. So we don't have eternity. You are correct about time and its relationship to TBB but you are wrong about eternity. Eternity exists outside of time and matter. Secondly, the universe presumably cannot contain anything from 'outside' the universe, there is no 'outside' - so, er, how could anything within the universe create it? False premiss,(there is no 'outside') false conclusion. God is both transcendent and imminent. "Thirdly, even given eternity, there are limitations. Heisenberg's principle. Lightspeed in vacuo. Eternity is not long enough to break a literally universal law." In the same way God transcends time, God also transcends, and is therefore not subject to the limitations of the material universe. Thought, is much quicker than the speed of light for instance. "Fourthly, it now looks as though we have an ever-expanding universe. I recall reading a while back that we can therefore expect to see proton decay within 10^60 years or so, following which the universe will consist mainly of neutrons and neutrinos... depressing thought, huh? But as far as we can tell at least this will go on for ever." As the big mama said to her unruly son, "I brought you into this word and I can take you out again". God is not finished with this world (gr-Cosmos) yet. "Lastly, although The idea of an eternity ...includes no limitations. - we live in an actuality, not an idea. The fact that something in theory has no limitations does not mean that this something is present in reality. You can say what you like - about the idea; but it need not apply. (how do I think the universe started? random fluctuation.)" If you restrict "reality" to only the things you can see and feel then perhaps you have a point, but then the laws of logic would then not be "real" would they? Have a jolly good day Greg

To: thames_sider who wrote (9387)	3/22/2001 2:16:09 PM
From: one_less	Respond to of 82486

"Firstly, according to current physics time was not there before the start of the universe - time began with the Big Bang. So we don't have eternity." Time is an element of the temporal universe. Of course it does not apply to the concept of eternity. That does not disprove the existence of eternity. "Secondly, the universe presumably cannot contain anything from 'outside' the universe, there is no 'outside' - so, er, how could anything within the universe create it?" Of course, the creator can not be part of the created. You cannot have an eternity dependant on the concept of time or the physics of the universe which have limits. "so, er, how could anything within the universe create it?" beats me...why don't you go ask one of the stone gods before the taliban smashes them all. "Thirdly, even given eternity, there are limitations. Heisenberg's principle. Lightspeed in vacuo. Eternity is not long enough to break a literally universal law." It appears that you can't grasp that eternity exists outside the parameters of the physical universe which is LIMITED. "Fourthly, it now looks as though we have an ever-expanding universe. I recall reading a while back that we can therefore expect to see proton decay within 10^60 years or so, following which the universe will consist mainly of neutrons and neutrinos... depressing thought, huh? But as far as we can tell at least this will go on for ever." OK, so what? How long is forever? "Lastly, although The idea of an eternity ...includes no limitations. - we live in an actuality, not an idea. The fact that something in theory has no limitations does not mean that this something is present in reality. You can say what you like - about the idea; but it need not apply." Great enjoy your reality....until its over. You probably have a few more years. "(how do I think the universe started? random fluctuation.)" Ya think so?