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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Kevin Rose who wrote (133654)	3/27/2001 12:48:18 PM
From: Srexley	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

"hard work does not always make you successful" I did not say ALWAYS. I am sure you can see how that changes the meaning. That said, I respectfully disagree with you. Your story is interesting, but you did not say whether the person was happy or not. Was she? If she was then your story is meaningless and she needed no assistance. If she was not happy, who's responsibility was it for her to change? The democratic party's?, Mine?, Yours? Couldn't be her's could it? I have met people that were probably at least is "poor" as your example, yet were very happy people. I will put them ahead of many that society would label as a success that are really miserable, but make a bunch of $. Why do YOU feel she had no other options? What should society do to insure that people don't have to do what she did (since it is apparant that you feel she was not happy)? How do you define success, btw? Money, free time, power, inner peace, good family? Here is my formula (for people of able body and mind): Hard work + smart = rich (monetarily) Hard work, not smart = food on the table, a place to sleep Lazy + smart = same as above Lazy + not smart = may need assitance Add a mixture of luck (good and bad) into all of the above and the results can vary dramatically. To get a good objective view of luck you can go to the casinos. If you think most (or even a signinficant percentage) of people who are successful got there because they are lucky you may be happier in a communistic society where everyone gets the same (except for the "lucky" politicians). There is NOTHING wrong with teaching that hard work can get you ahead in America. Labeling the succesful ones as lucky is a copout and sets a bad example for people who could use a good example.

To: Kevin Rose who wrote (133654)	3/27/2001 12:48:42 PM
From: Neocon	Respond to of 769667

You are quite right, there is an irreducible element of luck, and some people have quite bad breaks. On the other hand, sometimes hard luck stories don't hold up. For example, I worked at Howard Johnson's washing dishes one summer during college. There was a waitress working the night shift, ostensibly in order to pay for the kids clothes and some "extras". Then I found out that when she went to work, she had bought a brand new Cadillac, which very likely ate most of the money she brought in (Lord knows what her husband drove). Similarly, I had friends in New Mexico, a couple, who both worked, and who groused about their income. Only they insisted on buying a house in their 20s, and when the wife started commuting from Albequerque to Santa Fe, her in-laws put the down payment on a fancy car that cost them payments of $350 a month, plus high insurance because it was sporty. I once read a story in the Washington Post lamenting how 20- something yuppies living in Manhattan could not find decent accommodations without subsidy from Mom and Dad. Only they meant places in nice neighborhoods, like the Upper East Side, with doormen and elevators. Out of curiosity, I checked on the Web. One could have gotten a walk up in Chelsea, which is a nice enough neighborhood, but not "tony", for half the price quoted in the article. One of the first things my sister- in- law did when she got a good job in California, many years ago, was buy a (used) Alfa Romeo. She almost never drove it, because she couldn't afford the insurance or upkeep. Nevertheless, she refused to get rid of it, and kept it under a tarp for years. When she moved to the East Coast, she took the car with her, to rust under a tarp in New Jersey. She also maxed out her credit cards, and had to cut them up, because she had little concept of budgeting............

To: Kevin Rose who wrote (133654)	3/27/2001 3:27:49 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 769667

Excellent post, Kevin. It makes the point that it is not just hard work and good values that breed success, though they are necessary. It is also the systemic structures that provide opportunity for education, working and living conditions, which an individual cannot control except by moving, if then. An individual does not control the rents in the cheapest available place, nor the distance between this living place and work, nor the availability of public transportation or lack of it. Whether the individual can make enough money to get by with one job or must take two or three is only partially under their control -- the labor market they are working in is a big factor.

To: Kevin Rose who wrote (133654)	3/27/2001 10:01:27 PM
From: Thehammer	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 769667

<<Not everyone who works hard succeeds. One of the jobs I had in college was to manage a donut shop. The lady who taught me worked very hard. Because of the way that the company set up their bonus plan, you needed to make bonuses to make a living (like waitresses, the base pay was very low). Since the bonus was determined by the shops net profit, to make her numbers she had to work every day.>> Hi Kevin, This woman was victimized by her own choices. She has several potential avenues of action: the comfortable one which is to continue down the same path or she can choose to do something about her plight. Take some college classes, look for a better job, move, start her own business. The latter choice involves the risk of failure. To many that is far worse than the onerous hours imposed by her present job. Staying is the comfortable choice. It allows one to play the victim. The fear of failure is a great motivator. There is an element of luck, but there is also the element of what and how we choose. I do not doubt the lady worked hard, but many never succeed because they never really try.