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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Greg or e who wrote (10039)	3/29/2001 4:47:16 PM
From: cosmicforce	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

Re: That would then make Him imperfect. The way the God sees it you have to be perfect, in order to enter into a relationship with him. I thought the standard party-line was Christians weren't perfect just forgiven. God better make sense, or he won't be perfect. Or credible to those who expect the world to make sense. How nailing someone up and having them die does anything for me or my responsibility is totally beyond me. Think of what the Native Americans must have thought: here is the Son of God and this is what we did to Him (nailed on the cross). Talk about barbaric and off-putting! At any rate, I didn't expect you to agree, just wanted to provide you with some "balance" for your opinion.

To: Greg or e who wrote (10039)	3/29/2001 7:51:11 PM
From: epicure	Respond to of 82486

The hard truth? Nothing can be proved, especially not Gods. You want to put your faith in a God- you put your faith in a God- but don't run around trying to make it rocket science, because it isn't. Science isn't even sure, at least not in the sense I conceive of sureness- but at least it is REPEATABLE. To tell Cosmic to look at the hard truth is a laugh and a half. I think he has been there and back. The incredible idea is that you think a God with unlimited strategies could only come up with the solutions detailed in the Bible. Why would it make a perfect God imperfect to accept our imperfections? Because you say so? Yeah- that's convincing. Seems to me a perfect God could define him or herself and perfection anyway he she or it wanted to- unless their are laws beyond the power of God. So, if the universe could be anyway God wanted it to be, there is no reason God could not accept or imperfection. If the universe could not be any way God wanted it to be than the universe is beyond God's power- and is God perfect if there are things beyond God's power? This is all angels dancing on pins- btw- none of it matters. If you want to leap to a belief, and want to be "faithful" do it- just don't think you've got "facts"- because you are confusing fact and faith. The fact that people have faith does not give factual basis for the things they have faith in. All the proof we have- and it is ABUNDANT- is that humans have a huge capability for faith in all manner of Gods and Goddesses- and most faithful humans will tell you that all the evidence is for THEIR God, all those other gods??? false. No matter who you ask. Well, who can't see the point there. Once you doubt your God enough to say that yours might not be the true God, you've lost your faith. So Greg- you have faith, but that's it, ok? Your truth is a personal faith thing- it's not anything more or less than that.

To: Greg or e who wrote (10039)	3/31/2001 2:12:32 PM
From: Solon	Respond to of 82486

The way the God sees it you have to be perfect, in order to enter into a relationship with him. Even if we set the concept of original Sin aside for a moment, you would have to have lived a perfect life from birth in order to qualify for Heaven. What nonsense, Greg. Read your bible. This is what impresses me about the authoritative tone of some afficionados of the True Faith. They can spin tales out of nowhere--tales with no basis in fact--and others are simply supposed to exclaim, "Oh my! What a simply marvellous place this Heaven must be! When were you last there!?" Heaven is a place of perfection, right? Everyone in heaven is incapable of sin; Sin cannot occur in a place where sin cannot exist, right? But the bible tells us that heaven was full of sin and that God cast Lucifer down beneath the surface of earth, and that about a third of the angels followed him. Further, we find Satan and the "Sons of God" visiting God in heaven to discuss a gambling game they were wagering on as regards Job and his family--a game which was to involve torture and killing (from God, not Satan) as a test of Job's ability in self deception. You say that nothing imperfect can occur in heaven, but heaven was extremely corrupt. One third of the angels chose to follow the person whom Christians are pleased to think of as the most imperfect and evil being ever. Heaven is clearly a place of corruption. The bible said that Satan was created perfect; Then it shows how corrupt he was. So when the bible says perfect, it means imperfect. When the bible says left it means right. This would explain the thousands of biblical contradictions in fact and policy. Even now Satan maintains his relationship with God, and does indeed visit Him in heaven. The bible is clear on these points, at least. Who else is imperfect in heaven? Why, the answer is obvious. The God who regretted what He had done (see your bible) could hardly be perfect. Regret comes from an awareness of either imperfect works and actions, or a recognition of unfulfilled expectations. Regrets--and second and third efforts, or tries--these are not attributes of perfection, but of incompetence. Measure twice and cut once as the saying goes. God simply cuts, and cuts, and cuts... So please don't talk about the perfection of heaven, Greg. The heaven that God created was an even greater example of sin than the earth which He is so studiously ignoring. Heaven was "found" to be corrupt. Perhaps another flood? Oh, no--that would break a promise; Oh well--where there is a will there is a way.