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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (10282)	4/4/2001 10:00:55 AM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Who would that be? Not the Pope, who leads the largest denomination world wide. Not the Apostolic Patriarch in Istanbul. Not the Archbishop of Canterbury. Not the Lutheran bishops of Scandinavia or Germany. Not, in other words, most Christian leaders worldwide that I can think of. Nor even would most Evangelicals. The point is that one must acknowledge the need of salvation before conversion, which requires the knowledge of sin. It is one thing to say that one cannot be saved except through grace, and another to say that one cannot know something of morality, and act accordingly, on the basis of reason. Now, it is true that all are deemed subject to moral fallibility, but that is true of Christians as well as others. The difference is always that Christians can specially call upon God for aid. When Jerry Falwell founded the Moral Majority, his point was that most people, not just conservative Christians, agreed with the basic principles enunciated by the Ten Commandments. He was, in essence, trying to appeal to the mainstream........

To: Lane3 who wrote (10282)	4/4/2001 10:16:59 AM
From: thames_sider	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

Karen, Here's a classic example of Xtianity (at least) insisting that anyone not believing as it demands is doomed to Hell. The living of a moral life according to moral laws but without Xtian belief is deemed worthless by the Xtian Church. Oh, and if you don't believe that, you're a heretic, and damned: and have been since the fifth century... For example: "Man is able, without the grace of Christ... to perform the good which he wills, through his free will, and to omit the evil which he does not will." -- Pelagius. the central and formative principle of Pelagianism... lies in the assumption of the plenary ability of man; his ability to do all that righteousness can demand — to work out not only his own salvation, but also his own perfection... Pelagius consistently denied both the need and reality of divine grace in the sense of an inward help (and especially of a prevenient help) to man's weakness. markers.com [The article, BTW, is clearly written from the POV of belief in Xtianity; but at least describes the issue well, if very wordily...]