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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: TimF who wrote (10415)	4/5/2001 12:52:37 PM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 82486

Morning Tim "I have a problem with the idea that we have any responsibility for or can justly receive any punishment for Adam's transgressions." Frankly I would have a problem with it to, if it were not so clearly taught in the Bible. Jesus certainly believed in a literal Adam, as did Paul. The necessity of the second Adam,(Christ) from a theological perspective, is predicated on the historicity of the fist Adam. The doctrine of Original Sin is often expressed in a terms of the "total depravity of man", but this is often misconstrued. It sounds as though it is saying that all people are totally depraved in the sense that they could not get any worse. This is clearly not the case, as each of us could be much worse than we are, and in fact as you notice on this thread, most individuals are actually fairly decent and moral. what the doctrine of total depravity actually teaches is that Adams sin extends beyond just the physical world and has had an effect on the "TOTAL" person, Mind, Body, and Soul. We are said to be Spiritually dead, (Eph 2:) and unable to come to God, strictly on the basis of unaided reason.(see the first two chapters of 1Corinthians)The crystal clear waters of reason have been muddied by the pervasive effects of Sin. That also is in evidenced on this thread by the denial of obvious truth about the reflection of God found in the Creation.(Romans 1: ) The first word kids learn is "NO" Although the term, "total depravity" comes from Calvin's response to Arminius, in the sixteenth century, the argument actually goes back to the fifth century argument between Augustine and Pelagius. They in turn were arguing about the extent to which Adam's Sin effected the rest of Humanity. Pelagius denied it completely, and taught that Man's will, was totally free to choose between good and evil. Augustine took the opposite view for Biblical, exegetical reasons. This argument was picked up at the time of the reformation by Calvin and Luther. Luther's "Bondage of the Will " was his response to Erasmus' Semi-Pelagian (like semi- pregnancy) writings. Pelagianism (The view we are born Innocent) seems to be the default position of humanity, which is exactly what you might expect if in fact "Total Depravity" is true. What we must decide, is whether or not we will accept the Biblical view of the Human condition, or substitute one that will make us feel better about ourselves. I fully expect howls of protest when I post this. We'll see. Have a good day Tim Greg