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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (10694)	4/7/2001 11:16:52 AM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

Some interesting reading for the thread: nytimes.com The Final Freedom By ALAN WOLFE (an essay) and nytimes.com Have a Nice Life Alan Wolfe finds that in matters of morality, Americans are surprisingly nonjudgmental. By WENDY KAMINER (a book review)

To: Lane3 who wrote (10694)	4/7/2001 1:16:59 PM
From: The Philosopher	Respond to of 82486

You want that liberty and autonomy to be the US flavor of liberty and autonomy. I want it to be the flavor chosen by the people affected. Are you truly saying that the slaves in the Sudan have chosen to be slaves? Or that the women raped in Bosnia and Kosovo and elsewhere as an aspect of government control of the populations chose to be raped?

To: Lane3 who wrote (10694)	4/7/2001 1:19:28 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

I resent anyone saying that I shouldn't be free to be a slave if that's what I want. I haven't heard of many slaves who choose to remain slaves. I suppose it happens in societies where slaves get fed because they are a valuable asset whereas free persons starve because nobody cares whether they live. But I doubt it happens a lot. Certainly not in our country, where many slaves died trying to escape. They could hardly be said to have chosen to be slaves.

To: Lane3 who wrote (10694)	4/7/2001 3:41:46 PM
From: Solon	Respond to of 82486

If we truly value freedom, we'll allow them that choice. Really good post, K. Just a bit long, though :). I was starting to haul up the door on my root cellar just in case! The freedom to choose not to be free is a door that opens one way only. Only a free person can make free choices. A person without the freedom to choose cannot walk back through that door. Which is why I have argued that a person cannot truly give over their right to be free into the hands of another. It is not in a person's ability to offer in good faith what cannot be transferred: i.e. autonomy and freedom. I cannot place the joystick for my will and thought processing into the hands of another. So in another place and time--I might argue some of your details. I agree with you, that we can give up perhaps MOST of our freedom to ACT in acordance with our will, but insofar as our thoughts are also actions--we will have to learn to endure them as our own <g>. In a couple of decades, when we are able to upload our brains onto disks, and where we can share in direct brain merging--new arguments will need to be addressed...