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Pastimes : Neocon's Seminar Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Neocon who wrote (356)4/10/2001 3:41:58 PM
From: gao seng  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1112
 
The other 2 are movies also. The 9th Configuration stars Stacy Keach, and The Exorcist 3 (Legion) stars George C. Scott.

Good movies, and the sound effects on Exorcist 3 are the best I have ever heard.

But they do not do justice to the books.

Of course, I am unfamiliar with Chardin. It sounds interesting.

Hell: I would say that if someone makes war with God, and God wins, then that someone loses. Perhaps if they believe they were duped into making war with God then they may not accept that.

My favorite book on Hell:

Inferno
by Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle

Amazon reviews:

When a classical old world text is used as a template for a modern science fiction novel the heart must sink. A modern rendering of Dante's inferno? Preposterous, impertinent, heretical? No, it is actually a brilliant and very enlightened update of a true classic. The adaptation of the punishments of the past for 'modern' sins (particularly the fate of marketers) is very perceptive, Dante could scarce have imagined the inventiveness of modern sin. I would recommend this book to any classics or literature student to read in conjunction with the original.



To: Neocon who wrote (356)4/16/2001 1:03:34 AM
From: MSB  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 1112
 
Interesting discussion prior to "which version is best"(imo).

From this line:

"I am ambivalent about Hell, but salvation cannot be automatic, and therefore evolutionary, or what is the point of choice?"

I looked up the word "ambivalent" because I wanted to be sure I knew exactly what the word meant in relation to how it was being used with regard to Hell.

Ambivalence:

noun - simultaneous attraction toward and repulsion from a person, object, or action-ambivalent is the adjective usage.

I've wondered for years just how many people buy into the notion of being "once saved, always saved", or whether there are a number of people who reject this as a feasable possibility, thinking there to be the possibility of falling from salvation. Of course there will be those who will suggest one may never have been saved, but then I would counter to one who believes he or she is, "How do you know for sure that you are?"

I, personally, do not try to think much about Hell hoping God will just let me die and never wake up. I don't remember ever signing any contract prior to conception asking to be a part of the grand scheme knowing I'd go to Hell if I FU'ed. That, above and beyond everything I know or think I know about God, bothers me most about living and subsequent death.

Does this bug anyone else or did anyone else ever think about it?

(Note: I just don't care to spend the time on-line that I once did, but I've taken a liking to this thread and will most likely read any responses if any at a later date because this is one of the few threads at SI which I find interesting enough to pick up where I left off. Any messages directed to me publicly will most likely go unanswered. PM's will be answered if I think it appropriate at the time I return. Just thinking it might be a good idea to say so. Seem to enjoy spending more time alone than I used to.)



To: Neocon who wrote (356)4/22/2001 1:42:54 PM
From: gao seng  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 1112
 
I think it is not God's choice that we spend eternity in Hell, but our choice to elect not to spend eternity in Hell. It is through God's mercy that we have this choice re: John 3:16

If we choose not to decide, we still have made a choice via default. And the default is Hell.

-What is the role of Satan in Christianity?

From the NIV Bible Dictionary:

SATAN (Heb. satan, Gr. Satan or Satanas, an adversary). The chief of the
fallen spirits, the grand adversary of God and man. Without the article,
the Hebrew word is used in a general sense to denote someone who is an
opponent, an adversary‹e.g., the angel who stood in Balaam¹s way (Num
22:22), David as a possible opponent in battle (1 Sam 29:4), and a
political adversary (1 Kings 11:14). With the definite article prefixed,
it is a proper noun (Job 1-2; Zech 3:1-2), designating Satan as a
personality. In Psalm 109:6 the article is lacking, and reference may be
to a human adversary (cf. NIV ³an accuser²), but it is generally conceded
that in 1 Chronicles 21:1 the word is a proper name without the article.
In the NT the term Satan, transliterated from the Hebrew, always
designates the personal Satan (but cf. Matt 16:23; Mark 8:33). He is often
called the devil (Gr. diabolos), meaning ³the slanderer² (Matt 4:1; Luke
4:2; John 8:44; Eph 6:11; Rev 12:12). (³Devils² in KJV and ERV is properly
³demons.²) Other titles or descriptive designations applied to him are
³Abaddon² or ³Apollyon² (Rev 9:11); ³Accuser of our brothers² (12:10);
³enemy,² Greek antidikos (1 Peter 5:8); ³Beelzebub² (Matt 12:24); ³Belial²
(2 Cor 6:15); the one who ³leads the whole world astray² (Rev 12:9); ³the
evil one² (Matt 13:19, 38; 1 John 2:13; 5:19); ³the father of lies² (John
8:44); ³the god of this age² (2 Cor 4:4); ³a murderer² (John 8:44); ³that
ancient serpent² (Rev 12:9); ³the prince of this world² (John 12:31;
14:30); ³the ruler of the kingdom of the air² (Eph 2:2); ³the tempter²
(Matt 4:5; 1 Thess 3:5).
In the Book of Job he is pictured as mixing with the sons of God
(angels) in their appearing before God, though by his moral nature not one
of them. Jude 9 pictures him as a formidable foe to Michael the archangel.
While clearly very powerful and clever, he is not an independent rival of
God but is definitely subordinate, able to go only as far as God permits
(Job 1:12; 2:6; Luke 22:31). Christ gives a fundamental description of his
moral nature in calling him the evil one (Matt 13:19, 38; cf. John 8:44).
The origin of Satan is not explicitly asserted in Scripture, but the
statement that he did not hold to the truth (John 8:44) implies that he is
a fallen being, while 1 Timothy 3:6 indicates that he fell under God¹s
condemnation because of ambitious pride. While many theologians refuse to
apply the far-reaching prophecies in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-15
to Satan, contending that these passages are strictly addressed to the
kings of Babylon and Tyre, conservative scholars generally hold that they
contain a clear revelation of Satan¹s origin (cf. Dan 10:13; John 12:31;
Eph 6:12). These passages picture Satan¹s prefall splendor as well as his
apostasy through pride and self-exaltation against God. A consuming
passion of Satan is to be worshiped (Isa 14:14; Matt 4:9; 1 Cor 10:20; Rev
13:4, 15). In his fall Satan drew a vast number of lesser celestial
creatures with him (Rev 12:4).
Satan is the ruler of a powerful kingdom standing in opposition to the
kingdom of God (Matt 12:26; Luke 11:18). He exercises authority in two
different realms. He is the head of a vast, compact organization of
spirit-beings, ³his angels² (Matt 25:41; Eph 2:2; 6:12). Acts 10:38 makes
it clear that the outburst of demonic activities during the ministry of
Jesus was Satan-inspired. Satan is not omnipresent, but through his
subordinates he makes his influence practically world-wide. He also
exercises domination over the world of lost humanity (John 12:31, 14:30,
16:11), the evil world system that he has organized on his own principles
(2 Cor 4:3-4; Col 1:13; 1 John 2:15-17; 5:19).
Animated by an unrelenting hatred against God and all goodness, Satan
is engaged in a world-wide and age-long struggle against God, ever seeking
to defeat the divine plans of grace toward mankind and to seduce people to
evil and ruin. His primary method is that of deception‹about himself, his
purpose, his activities, and his coming defeat (Rev 12:9). Satan was the
seducer of Adam and Eve (Gen 3:1-7; 2 Cor 11:3); he insinuated to God that
Job served him only for what he got out of it (Job 1:9); and he stood up
against Israel (1 Chron 21:1) and God¹s high priest (Zech 3:1-2). Under
divinely imposed limitations he may be instrumental in causing physical
affliction or financial loss (Job 1:11-22; 2:4-7; Luke 13:16; 2 Cor 12:7).
He snatches away the Word of God sown in the hearts of the unsaved (Matt
13:19), sows his counterfeit Christians among the children of the kingdom
(13:25, 38-39), blinds the minds of people to the gospel (2 Cor 4:3-4),
and induces them to accept his lie (2 Thess 2:9-10). Often he transforms
himself into ³an angel of light² by presenting his apostles of falsehood
as messengers of truth (2 Cor 11:13-15). He clashes in fierce conflict
with the saints (Eph 6:11-18), is ever alert to try to destroy them (1
Peter 5:8), and hinders the work of God¹s servants (1 Thess 2:18). Certain
members of the church who were expelled are said to have been delivered to
Satan but with the design to produce their reformation, not their
destruction (1 Cor 5:5; 1 Tim 1:20).
Although Satan was judged in the Cross (John 13:31-33), he is still
permitted to carry on the conflict, often with startling success. But his
revealed doom is sure. He now has a sphere of activities in the heavenly
realms (Eph 6:12); he will be cast down to the earth and will cause great
woe because of his wrath, which he will exercise through ³the dragon² (2
Thess 2:9; Rev 12:7-12; 13:2-8). With Christ¹s return to earth he will be
incarcerated in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years; when released for a
season, he will again attempt to deceive the nations but will be cast into
³the eternal fire² prepared for him and his angels (Matt 25:41), to suffer
eternal doom with those he deceived (Rev 20:1-3, 7-10).