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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (11287)	4/14/2001 1:09:15 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Perhaps people are less frail than religions give them credit for being. I have seen no evidence that human beings are frail. I have seen evidence that they can convince themselves they are frail. I have seen evidence that they can convince themselves they are ugly when they are beautiful. That they can convince themselves they are fat when they are dying from starvation. That they can convince themselves that they are in love when they are with a person who is killing them. I think people are incredibly strong and have an endless capacity for changing reality with their minds. But that's just what I think. Perhaps that's what makes all the difference.

To: Neocon who wrote (11287)	4/14/2001 1:52:00 AM
From: 2MAR$	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Exactly , the idea of "heavenly grace " is really a powerful one. But it is the grace of one learning weave his way thru the vastness of his own experience. It takes training much more than it does a "promise " of life after death. Of course i know as you say that speech and the written word were mastered long before then . Vocal cords evolved when ? Somewhere around 150K years ago I believe... (might be wrong there) Very powerful tools , when you think of the ability to store data , and preserve ideas , stories concepts and feelings that are of a non-material nature & which could be conveyed later on. Very powerful stuff , Neocon, when we become able to not only describe & note the natural events in the world outside of us , but begin to also start to record the events & phenomena of world of changes within ourselves as we course thru life . We begin to observe the seasons of the highly evolved psychological and biological machines we really are... playing in the field of time , space and change. As to being "fair" with Christianity's dependance on miracles, a risen messiahs and fantastic happenings, and "Holy Lands" to prove it's beliefs,those are in fact their weakest case. The strongest case for the falseness of these claims I could ever make , is the denial that is so widespread even today , that so many don't see the many similarities between all the teachings , and they choose only to see the differences. The "Big" picture doesn't rest on eternal life and going to the Kingdom of God in heaven , or returning to the Promised Land...those are children's stories , Neo. The promised Land could be Joshua Tree , or Tibet , or somewhere in the peaks of the Andes, or the Hawaiian Islands . Depends where you are standing, and what myth you want to believe. But forcing it on others with the threat of eternal damnation, is the worst case scenario , in the guise of the truth. That is being fair....

To: Neocon who wrote (11287)	4/14/2001 2:15:14 AM
From: 2MAR$	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Some of the Founding Fathers may have had a sense of "self- actualization". Some were pretty conventional Episcopalians or Congregationalists. If the question is one of fulfillment, well, even the Buddhists developed the idea of the Bodhisattva, who in his infinite compassion held back from Nirvana to aid the supplicant in his attempt to purify his life and ascend to a higher level of rebirth. In the end, grace makes more sense to most people than "self- reliance", because human beings are a frail lot....... you do have a gift with words Neocon, always a great response from you regarding historical fact...the idea of Buddha being already passing into that Pure Land and achieving nirvanna , yet remaining behind to teach the way is the "the great sacrifice". To the Eastern mind , this is regarded with the highest reverence , with as much love and devotion as any Christian . It is the same principal at work . This example of spending 45years in constant traveling and teaching princes and kings and poor alike , must have been a story to have been told throughout the known world at the time . Especially when the largest Empire to the east of Rome, the Ashokan converts to these teachings 250yrs before the dawn of the christian era, and experiences a golden age no historian of note could dare to ignore. The parallel's between the two stories of Buddha and Christ are so compelling as to leave me only to marvel at how much denial there is in the world today. Buddha taught the way was steep and narrow but accessable to all. Jesus in fact did the same. It was no longer in the hands of the priests. Then there is the Mahabharata and the Bhagavad Gita and the story of Krishna...who can ignore these? Love following the discourses here ... regards ;-) Mars PS : I think if you go to the heart of thought of some of our more prominent founding fathers you would find secretly and even more openly evolving a new kind of perspective , completely. Almost Buddhist , in many respects , and pragmatical when regarding "miracles" and views of God hidden/revealing in nature.