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Politics : Formerly About Applied Materials -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Katherine Derbyshire who wrote (45999)	4/28/2001 2:21:03 PM
From: Gottfried	Respond to of 70976

Katherine, a new 'concern': "AT&T TO CUT WORKFORCE 120 PERCENT" satirewire.com G.

To: Katherine Derbyshire who wrote (45999)	4/28/2001 2:55:05 PM
From: Kirk ©	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

OT... Well, without any nits to pick, then what would a nitpicker do? 8) Of course you are correct. I was thinking of: #1 The photons from the sun are converted to Wood by trees that I later burn. and #2 the photons from the sun are converted into "rain" that ends up behind dams. I believe when the full cycle is complete, that the energy from the sun is used for the "heat of vaporization" and then this is given back when the clouds rain and the water runs back down to the ocean. I used to design solid state photon detectors so I think that way... I should have been more specific. 8) Fusion reactions actually reduce mass of the particles. I believe (my brain is rusty) you "burn" hydrogen in the form of Deuteron in stars and fusion reactors to create Helium. Deuteron is unusual in that it doesn't decay into two protons to form a lower energy level so it is stable. You can "burn" Deuterons to form Helium which has a lower mass than the sum of what you burn (Du is H with a neutron). There are two stable types of He, one is 2 neutrons and 2 protons, aka an Alpha particle, and then there is He made from 2 protons and a single neutron but it is only 0.00013% of the total found naturaly. Since both have lower mass than the components, energy is released and we get a star, controlled reaction or a bomb, depending on how it is done. OK, I cheated: Classical and Modern Physics, Vol 3, Kenneth Ford Pgs 1264-1295 (Good thing I was rearranging my book shelves this AM as that book was DUSTY!) Couldn't remember how to spell deuteron and I never could in school either! I used to love this stuff but the math was above me or my Berkeley physics prof. taught above my level...or BOTH! 8) Kirk out

To: Katherine Derbyshire who wrote (45999)	4/28/2001 10:00:24 PM
From: pgerassi	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 70976

Dear Kathrine Derbyshire: Re:"I hate to nitpick, but neither woodburning stoves nor dams convert matter into energy. In wood, oxidation (a chemical reaction) releases the energy stored in carbon-carbon bonds. The number of atoms of carbon and oxygen after the reaction precisely equals the number before the reaction. The amount of energy before and after is the same, too." Answer: Wrong! Ten carbon atoms are a tiny bit more massive than the sum mass of all ten connected by carbon-carbon bonds. This connected mass plus twenty oxygen atoms with oxygen-oxygen bonds is slightly more massive than all ten CO2 molecules atoms connected by carbon-oxygen bonds. It is this mass decrease that converts to the energy released. When water falls it converts potential energy into kinetic energy. If this energy is bled off, the mass of the water, planet, and the associated gravity field actually decreases by the energy released. This same effect causes tiny black holes to be white (first postulated by Stephen Hawking). The easy way is to look at all matter as energy period. Einstein showed us that you can look at a system where you can convert all of the energy to mass and vice versa without changing essentially what happens. The mass of wood and air prior to burning is higher than the mass of ash and combustion gases. The difference in mass is the energy lost in the process. If done in a completely isolated chamber, all of the mass is still there in the kinetic energy in the gases produced and the temperature increase of the ash. Mass or energy is not lost but one can be converted to the other, thus, the proportions change but not the sum of both. I hope this sets you straight. Pete

To: Katherine Derbyshire who wrote (45999)	4/28/2001 11:40:42 PM
From: Jerome	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 70976

Which is why a fusion reaction gives many times more energy than burning an equivalent mass of wood. In my neighborhood you can burn all the wood you want but just as soon as you try to create a critical mass all the neighbors get ticked and call the local officials that want to see your permits. Its a real hassle trying to prevent global warming with the use of modern science. I'll just advertise my rural Denver property as future oceanview property and raise the price once again. Jerome

To: Katherine Derbyshire who wrote (45999)	4/29/2001 5:20:52 PM
From: Kirk ©	Respond to of 70976

OT More nits as this is important to us nit pickers. 8) You said: I hate to nitpick, but neither woodburning stoves nor dams convert matter into energy. In wood, oxidation (a chemical reaction) releases the energy stored in carbon-carbon bonds. The number of atoms of carbon and oxygen after the reaction precisely equals the number before the reaction. The amount of energy before and after is the same, too. That book I referenced in my first reply gives a good discussion of the "mass required" to form bonds (mass being equal to energy by e=mc^2). There are several types of bonds. Burning things keeps the number of neutrons and protons the same, but it changes the bonding which releases energy in the form of heat when you burn wood in O2. Nuclear Fusion is changing small atoms into larger ones to release heat. It is the opposite of Fission which is changing a large atom into smaller atoms. BOTH are called "nuclear reactions" . Burning wood is a chemical reaction that changes one set of molecules into another with a lower energy state. Similar processes in that they go from a high energy state to a lower energy state but one is atoms and one is molecules. Both give off heat as the by products have a lower final mass. Quantum physics IS funny in that you can be BOTH right and wrong! 8) MASS is lower after you burn but it comes from the bonds, either nuclear or molecular. The effect of the lowered energy state is a lower mass but you DO still have the same total amount of particles. Hope I just didn't make the smoke thicker... 8) best regards Kirk out