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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (13463)	5/11/2001 1:12:20 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Breaking a promise, without excuse, is a moral infraction. It's clear that you and I (and I think Karen) have very different definitions of the word "moral." As I have said before, and will say again, differing definitions are the key to most disagreements. Probably if we used your definition of moral we would agree with you. I'm quite sure that if you used our definition of moral you would agree with us. So we can quit arguing about whether irresponsibility is per se immoral and focus, if we want the discussion to continue, on agreeing on a definition of moral. If we get agreement on that, we'll end the argument. But I don't have time or interest for that at the moment.

To: Neocon who wrote (13463)	5/11/2001 2:24:38 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 82486

Why would you expect no grief if you were blameworthy? I am baffled by your account. Either it is excused ("understandable"), or blameworthy (and you should expect to get grief). Neo, I'm accountable for my actions. Whether or not my failure was forgivable, I still failed in my responsibility. You shouldn't be able to get out of accountability with an excuse. That's a concoction of wimps and bleeding hearts. You accept blame and ask forgiveness for any damage. Forgiveness leaves you forgiven for your irresponsibility. It doesn't erase your irresponsibility. It doesn't produce a car pool pass. Breaking a promise, without excuse, is a moral infraction I don't like the notion that one can escape accountability by coming up with an excuse. Kids are notorious for trying to wriggle out of things with excuses. They're great at coming up with excuses but not so good at avoiding the offense in the first place. Parents are notorious for saying "you're not to blame." It carries forward into adulthood. I consider it a character flaw. <g> And a factor in the deterioration of responsibility and accountability in our society. It's not up to the accountable party to offer excuses seeking to be let off the hood If the offended party finds the explanation worthy of forgiveness, that's his choice. If you restrict the term "moral" to heinous offenses, I understand your resistance. I don't restrict the term by degree of offense but by kind. Traditional moral (religious) constructs are so broad that they dilute the thrust of the word. Lots of people, when they think of immorality, think first of sexual creativity, fantasy, or display because that's what they learned in Sunday school. Including a robust sexuality under the same umbrella of immorality as battering and bigotry diminishes the force of the word. Including weaknesses of character like self-indulgence or tardiness or attention getting as immoral also diminishes it. The word, immoral, should stand for something more focused, not be a catch-all for all less than desirable thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors. If you want a catch-all, just use the word, wrong. IMO. Karen