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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Solon who wrote (17121)	6/19/2001 7:07:47 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

"Neither of us showed examples of dramatic increases or decreases in the number of abortions" I guess you forgot about this disgusting demonstration of the benefits of illegal abortions... Romania isn't the only example of a country where abortions are or were illegal, in the other countries there was not such "benefits". Also your reponse had nothing to do with the part of my post that you quoted. If you just want to make a statement about it why put it as a reply to something that it is not directly relevant to? Apparently, countries where abortions are illegal are no safer for fetuses, but are much more dangerous for mothers. This is obvious to anyone. It is a simple statement of FACT. Nothing is being inferred. FACT. You can make up the reason "WHY." You have not established it as fact. You have shown numerous times that abortions still happen when it is illegal but that doesn't mean that they happen as often particuarly in countries where contraception is readily available. and that these reported numbers happen to show that making abortions illegal DOES NOT appear to correlate to a decreased incidence of abortions. The numbers show nothing of the sort. They only shows that there are a handful of countries that you can name were abortion is illegal but the abortion rate is very high. I posted a handful myself where it was legal and the rate is even higher. You didn't even make an attempt to consider the overall abortion rate in countries where it was legal and countries where it was illegal. You definitely didn't try to factor out other issues which effect the number of abortions, or even just compare countries that are similar in other respects besides the abortion laws. At best you have shown that it is not crazy to believe that laws against abortion do not significantly decrease abortions, but you have not shown that this belief is actually true or that it is crazy to hold the opposite belief. You also say "The highest abortion rates in the world are in ILLEGAL abortion countries." Which is apparently not true.... I believe that it is true. According to my figures none of the countries you mention was in the top 5. According to your own claims the highest abortion rate in the countries you listed was 5th. So at least the top 4 abortion rates if not the top 6 or 7, are all in countries where abortion is legal. That would be "C" then, not E. I covered it in my list. C was "Some other benefit not yet identified to me". You honestly have never heard people argue against legal abortion on the grounds of the rights of the unborn, or to try to reduce the number of abortions?!? You can't be serious. Look at the beginning of this post to see what making abortions illegal did to protect children's rights in Romania. And look what it did to reduce abortions??!! I'm completly serious. Romaina is not a typical example. It was a communist dictatorship that was falling apart economically and socially and it also tried to ban contraception. 78,000 women die from illegal abortions every year. Does that fact touch your heart in any way? Would it make a difference to you if the "woman" was a friend or a family member? Did you know that worldwide, the lifetime average is 1 abortion per woman?? Did you know that 46,000,000 womaen have abortions every year. Woman have always had abortions regardless of their legality. Do you think that 46,000,000 woman should be forced to have "unsafe" abortions?? If 46,000,000 women have abortions every year then that is 46,000,000 deaths from abortion each year. As for the 78,000 deaths - Whether or not there are that many each one of them is a tragedy but so is each abortion even when the woman is not harmed. Also I have some doubt at the 78,000 figure. "Dr. Bernard Nathanson -- who was one of the original leaders of the American pro-abortion movement and co-founder of N.A.R.A.L. (National Abortion Rights Action League), and who has since become pro-life -- admits that he and others in the abortion rights movement intentionally fabricated the number of women who allegedly died as a result of illegal abortions: How many deaths were we talking about when abortion was illegal? In N.A.R.A.L. we generally emphasized the drama of the individual case, not the mass statistics, but when we spoke of the latter it was always "5,000 to 10,000 deaths a year." I confess that I knew the figures were totally false, and I suppose the others did too if they stopped to think of it. But in the "morality" of the revolution, it was a useful figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with honest statistics. The overriding concern was to get the laws eliminated, and anything within reason which had to be done was permissible. [Source: Bernard Nathanson, M.D., Aborting America (New York: Doubleday, 1979), 193.] " Also see roevwade.org ifrl.org In the United States: "There have been more than 38 million abortions since 1973. Than annual number of abortions has nearly doubled since Roe v. Wade." kfl.org proaxis.com "There were a mere 24 women who died from illegal abortions in 1972, the year before Roe v. Wade legalized abortion. [Source: U.S. Bureau of Vital Statistics Center for Disease Control.] With the Roe decision, abortion was now legal in all fifty states and back alley abortions eliminated, along with their alleged total of maternal deaths. In 1973 there should have been a sharp drop in abortion-related deaths if abortion advocates were right that legalizing abortion would make abortion safe." Yet abortion-related deaths increased with 25 deaths resulting from legal abortion in 1973, 26 in 1974 and 29 in 1975. [Ibid.] Tim