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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (24093)	8/22/2001 8:14:53 PM
From: The Philosopher	Respond to of 82486

whether they have values and and the character to regularly act on those values in their everyday activities. I was with you up to there. But then comes the problem. If OP values are transient and transitory, as they must by definition be if you accept Neo's categorization, then what you are suggesting as a standard of good is really smoke and mirrors. Under Neo's OP category, an OP has no fixed values. So their value right now might be that, say, capital punishment is good, but in the next post might be that capital punishment is bad. They cannot be pinned down to any values, because their values are like jello and can squirm out any which way they choose. So while it's noble to talk about having values and acting on them, if you are a true relativist (which few people in fact are, but that's another issue) your values are whatever you say they are at any given moment. So you can ALWAYS say you're acting on your values, because whatever action you took was consistent with your values at that exact moment. So a true relativist can never act contrary to his or her values because at the moment of action the values are whatever values are necessary to justify the action being taken. It's only if you have values that are fixed at least for some period of time that you have to choose whether or not to act at this moment in accord with your values. And if you have fixed values, even for some period of time, then for that period you're a PMP, not an OP. Or maybe we need an interim category, transient PMPs, those who spend some time in PMPdom before their temporarily fixed values become unfixed again and they're back to OP. Of course, this raises the problem that the transient PMP, or TPMP, can choose to transit any time they want to, so I'm not sure how much further on we pragmatically are.

To: Lane3 who wrote (24093)	8/22/2001 8:15:59 PM
From: Jorj X Mckie	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Since I'm one of the OPs-- Karen, are you really an OP? I thought that this is one thing that all libertarians would have in common. That is, a set of values that are not situational and that you apply (or try) to yourself as you would apply to others. In a political sense, just because a law, policy or government program could be beneficial to me, if it violated my basic values, I couldn't support it. In a real life example, I was once an aspiring artist, but I have always fervently opposed the NEA based on the idea that this is not the proper role of the government (among other things). Now, I was never good enough to realistically expect an NEA grant, but I assure you that I would have turned one down if it was offered based on principle even though I could have had a direct benefit. It is my belief that all true libertarians would respond similarly. I don't understand how any libertarian could claim to be an OP, unless I misunderstand your classification. Are we talking about those who embrace situational ethics and those who don't? I have a basic set of values, morals, principles etc...that I live my life by. I am not religious though. The basis though is the Golden Rule. I treat people the way that I want to be treated and I don't treat people in ways that I wouldn't want to be treated. And I don't expect people to follow rules that I am also not willing to follow. I believe that this is the foundation for integrity. Does this make me an OP or a PMP? I would have classified myself as a PMP, but I thought that our philosophical beliefs were pretty similar and that tells me that you would probably classify me as an OP.

To: Lane3 who wrote (24093)	8/22/2001 8:20:03 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

"How could this be if the PMPs were so good for society, so committed to decency? Don't these moral values and principles get translated into everyday actions? Do PMPs not practice their beliefs? My, my. Can it be that there's no correlation between absolute values and good citizenship? Karen, your premise in proposing this whole track of thought was loaded. You accused people of wanting to skip to the last page of the novel when, infact, you were scripting it before the content you were asking for had been delivered. All of your above questions contain innuendo. So, they have to be dismissed outright as disingenuous. You show a lack of appreciation for the PM position, obviously without having consideration of it. Yet you post predetermined and sneeringly pretentious conclusions about its adherents. Could you be any more biased. I don't think so. I consider the dishonesty of what you are doing to be much more problematic than the behavior of the participants in the "war" you've place yourself in judgement over. Courteous behavior and politeness can be and often is a mask for manipulative cruelty, deceit, and overbearing oppression. Civility and righteousness are not always synonymous, IMO.

To: Lane3 who wrote (24093)	8/22/2001 8:45:39 PM
From: jlallen	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

As I observed this war going on, I was struck by the nastiness that appeared. I was also struck by the observation that the preponderance of the nastiness, by a considerable margin, was coming from posters who fit into the PMP category. How could this be if the PMPs were so good for society, so committed to decency? Don't these moral values and principles get translated into everyday actions? Do PMPs not practice their beliefs? My, my. Can it be that there's no correlation between absolute values and good citizenship? As a PMP, I see no evil in treating evil ..... "evilly". JLA