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To: TobagoJack who wrote (9074)	9/14/2001 8:54:49 AM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Hi Jay - the H was just reading over my shoulder but he's out the door, has to get to the office. He says he'll read what you wrote in more detail later, but commented that he didn't approve of what our government did in Waco, and that most Moslems are perfectly innocent people living peaceful lives and doing the best they can. "Perfectly innocent" is not to be taken literally - it means "not doing anything illegal or grossly immoral."

To: TobagoJack who wrote (9074)	9/14/2001 9:14:31 AM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

As for me, I seem to have a lot of faith in the power of humans looking after their own self interests. It's the greatest motivating force of mankind, and all other living things. People ally with political parties, religions, regimes, industries, because they perceive that is where their self interest lies. In some cases (Islam, Communist Party in China a few years ago) it may be the only viable choice. Some people feel most comfortable allying with the status quo, the powers that be. Others are visionaries. Wanting to bring capitalism to China is a vision. Wanting to bring religion to China is a vision. Wanting to rid the Arabic world of western influence is a vision. Wanting independence for your own country which is occupied by foreign powers is a vision. I am an historian. I chronicle what is and what was. From that I can extrapolate what may be, but I am not a visionary. I can tell you that many westerners believed in the vision of the Soviet Union and gave much money, time and blood, but were sorely misused and disappointed, from my perspective. Maybe they weren't disappointed. I would have been. Why did America "fail" China? Better to say that colonialism sucked, and racism sucks. Chinese immigrants to America were treated despicably. So were the Indians and the blacks and the Irish and the Slavs. Irish and Slavs are Catholic, by the way, which wasn't a good thing to be in parts of America. That's changed, but the KKK still has Catholics on their hate list. Edit: I forgot to mention Jews. People used to call my mother's father a "hunky" - that was a derogatory name for someone of Slavic ancestry. My mother's mother's father refused to let his wife claim her fair share of Indian land because he didn't want anyone to know his wife was part Indian. Honeychild, in most of the USA for much of its history, if you weren't white Anglo Saxon Protestant, you were dirt. Shit happens. Get over it. That was then, this is now. History is an avalanche. You can only watch it pass by, you can't hold on to any little piece of it. It doesn't mean anything out of context.

To: TobagoJack who wrote (9074)	9/14/2001 9:24:08 AM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Most important - I want to put this on the top of the list - you cannot use the past as justification for what you do in the future. Neither "us," nor "you." I know people do it, but they always pick the part of history that makes them look good, which means they are lying. That's harsh words, but it's true. I know I can't stop people from doing it. It's one of those things people do, tell themselves stories to justify their actions. Maybe this is why Eastern religion advises living in the moment. So many people focus on the past, not as historians, but as grudge collectors. Injustice collectors. Maybe it makes me mad because I am a mother, and it drives me nuts when my kids do it, tit for tat. One bad act doesn't justify another bad act. Just do the right thing.

To: TobagoJack who wrote (9074)	9/14/2001 9:29:32 AM
From: Cogito Ergo Sum	Respond to of 74559

Nice post Jay IMO. A long time ago, so it seems now, somewhere on this thread I said I saw no war between the US and China, that the US needs China. I think this is more true now, and Mr. Bush should choose his friends wisely. The interests of the US on the world stage will become more similar to China's as time passes. Irrespective of current political differences etc. due the size and makeup of these two countries they will many face similar problems and as China moves more towards democracy this will become more evident. Well, I'm off to earn some money to pay some bills. regards Kastel a cute and cuddly Canadian

To: TobagoJack who wrote (9074)	9/14/2001 10:38:32 AM
From: Moominoid	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

I've been a bit puzzled about Falun-Gong/Dafa. I see those guys here demonstrating outside the Chinese Embassy and in the centre of town too. They are on hunger strike at the embassy (which looks like one of those ancient chinese buildings with the typical roof - embassies here in Canberra are a like a theme park). I read some of their writings on the web and it made about as much sense to me as the parts of the Quran I've read. Similar style. But in this case it appeared directed against orthodox Buddhism. The cult-leader seemed to be saying that Buddhists have somehow distorted the real truth or don't have it and he has the correct way to live. That was the gist I got. crusade against China I shudder everytime I hear that word Crusade.... actually Jihad sounds quite pleasant by comparison :) David PS - my friend got her US visa renewed on the second attempt in Shanghai on Monday and flew straight away to Beijing to join the NorthWest flight back to LA.... and she is still in Beijing. Bad luck seems to follow her everywhere :) I was surprised that she actually was granted the visa as to me the evidence wasn't convincing that either she cna fudn her studies or that she will go back to China. Seems that the supporting letters from the University and professionals in the field were good enough.