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Politics : High Tolerance Plasticity -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Razorbak who wrote (7927)	9/15/2001 10:52:54 AM
From: Aggie	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 23153

Razorbak, good morning. I too have spent a good chunk of my life travelling in places outside of the catered economy. Too many Americans take what they have for granted. How many have seen the butchers shop in North Africa, where there is still no refrigeration and the cow's head is hung outside the shop to demonstrate the freshness of the meat (hint: check the eyes)? How many have had some dead-eyed west african soldier in jungle mufti and sub-machine gun look them over in a hot open- air terminal? Nothing like that hollow feeling, when the realisation hits home that your life is really worth no more than that smelly illiterate villager sitting next to you. How many have spent 8 hours trying to clear customs in the FSU, or seen the tanks roll out during an Indonesian overthrow? Nothing like that "all alone" feeling when you're 20 miles from the nearest airport and no planes are flying - and every American should go through it before getting thier forehead veins popped out in battle fervor. Because that's the way the rest of the world lives everyday! I share your skepticism. The only way this campaign will succeed will be for the USA to embrace Islam, not condemn it. You'll only beat the likes of these weasels by cutting them out of the herd, IMO. Along different lines - all of you who are my age remember watching tube as kids - Bugs Bunny kicking SchickelGruber's butt, old propagandistic War Movies, all stuff which has been pretty much faded out thanks to P.C. station programmers....my big fear is that we will embark on a new culture of blackout and propaganda - in my opinion, it's already taking hold. Take this story, for example: nashuatelegraph.com Now, Nashua houses air traffic control for Boston. And yesterday comes the story about the angst of the traffic controllers when the highjackings commenced and planes started dropping. Buried in here is the comment (a) Military took control of US airspace at 10:30, (b) Flight 93 crashed in Pa. at 10:37, and finally, (c) and F-16 was shadowing flight 93 for some time before it crashed Wow! Any questions there? Wouldn't you like to know more? If the plane was downed, (and I believe it would have been a prudent move given the previous hour's events), shouldn't we know about it, in addition to enshrining the occupants? Yet the story has seen no exposure in the greater press. Or how about the BBC story on the US military's expedited Tender for Marine diesel and Aviation fuel, to be delivered to Diego Garcia and Spain? Clearly this is an important story, it's out there on the European Web, but it gets no coverage here at home! Show your Colors, Fly the Flag, Be a Patriot. But don't trade in your intellect and reason (and rights) as a consequence, eh? Regards to All, Proud to be American Aggie

To: Razorbak who wrote (7927)	9/15/2001 11:58:56 AM
From: Think4Yourself	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23153

While I have not visited the ME yet I have had about 60 pages sewn into my passports over the years. I trust your point is that the perceptions about a type or class of people are often changed once you are exposed to them. If that is the case then I agree with you completely. Travelling and ignorance/bigotry/prejudice are typically incompatible. Smallminded people generally don't travel. This thread is proof as most of the members appear to be seasoned travellers. One thing I have learned is that negative stereotypes about people are almost always wrong. Almost all people everywhere I have gone/lived have been incredibly hospitable, even in areas considered "unfriendly". To say the terrorists represent the Islamic people is the same as saying the KKK represents the Christian people or that Timothy McVeigh represented the american people. Also please do not misunderstood my commentary regarding the airbase south of Riyadh. My point was NOT that it is not needed to protect US interests. My point is that we gave our word to the arab states to pull out after the Gulf war and then broke it...for whatever reasons. I actually remember our government making that promise. There was a big stink about that issue in the arab community. Also not suggesting we pull out right now. To do so would invite terrorist attacks whenever someone has a gripe with us.

To: Razorbak who wrote (7927)	9/15/2001 4:36:49 PM
From: Raymond Duray	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23153

Hi Razorbak, I read your latest post with great interest. You make an number of very valid points and your description of your experiences in Pakistan in particular is a very insightful first hand account. Thank you for sharing that with us. As to my passport, I'd say you have me beat hands down as far as globetrotting is concerned. I've traveled in the three countries of North America and briefly to Europe. So, you correctly judged that I haven't had much 3rd world experience. Perhaps the closest I ever came to that was an inadvertent turn (ala Sherman McCoy in "Bonfire of the Vanities") when I ended up in a completely unfamiliar (to me) neighborhood on the near West Side of Chicago. My fear was palpable as watched with increasing trepidation the hatred in the eyes of the men on those street corners as I impatiently waited for my stoplight to turn. As close to panicking as I've ever gotten, ready to race away. As far as taking direct action against the state of Afghanistan, Sudan or any of the other proposed targets for our anger and lashing out, all I can say is that it will be a feel good moment for the country when the TV news shows us blowing something up. No doubt about it. It worked swell during the Gulf War. The only problem that we are left with, is that our wanton destruction of Kabul, Khartoum or any other asset we'd like to blow up, is that it will only serve to be the greatest recruitment tool the enemy could ever have. Unless we want the U.S. to be on a permanent war footing (and I, for one, do not), the course of action that the U.S. must engage in is a measured and considered response and a willingness to take the necessary security measures that we must in order to protect our vital interests on our home turf. Politically and diplomatically, I think we are on the moral high ground right now. Heck, even Moammar Khaddafi has condemned the terrorists. We can take advantage of the good will of the world, and in particular the nation states of the Middle East by acting judiciously to try to eradicate these fundamentalist cells as we can. But to engage in a wholesale carpet bombing approach to salve our anger will only serve to further the agendas of our enemies. It will only be further proof that we are indeed the "Great Satan". Unless we take the high ground, remaining resolute and determined to punish the real perpetrators and not a crowd of innocents, and unless we take intelligent steps toward greater transport security without the utter crippling of the transportation system as we are witnessing now, I frankly do not see how we can get past this episode without a drastic and unfortunate transformation in the vaunted American way of life that all of us here have come to see as the best of all possible worlds. My reading of the "Tournament of Shadows" continues. I can hardly overemphasize how every Western attempt to intervene in the internal affairs of Afghanistan since the early 1800's has been utterly rebuffed at considerable cost to the foreign interventionists. It is this lesson that I addressed in my disparaging comments about "Bully Boy Bluster". I'm opposed to this approach for only one reason. History proves, it doesn't work. Cordially, Ray