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Strategies & Market Trends : VOLTAIRE'S PORCH-MODERATED -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Voltaire who wrote (41740)9/15/2001 12:09:35 PM
From: stockman_scott  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 65232
 
<<the detonation of a SMALL Tactical Nuclear weapon IN THE MOUNTAINS OF AFGANISTAN.>>

V: That raises the stakes to the point where it may drive the radical terrorists to gain control of a weapon of mass destruction and USE IT. I feel we should use the Delta Forces, Special Forces from the Allies, Hired Mercenaries, and selective surgical bombing campaigns. We can also work to seize assets of the Terrorists and those that support them. Lots of options will be considered and lots of pressure will be applied. This will be a long, sustained campaign against global terrorism.

Regards,

Scott

BTW, I think Kissenger has some wise advice....
______________

Destroy The Network


By Henry Kissinger
Wednesday, September 12, 2001; Page A31

An attack such as yesterday's requires systematic planning, a good organization, a lot of money and a base. You cannot improvise something like this, and you cannot plan it when you're constantly on the move. Heretofore our response to attacks, and understandably so, has been to carry out some retaliatory act that was supposed to even the scales while hunting down the actual people who did it.

This, however, is an attack on the territorial United States, which is a threat to our social way of life and to our existence as a free society. It therefore has to be dealt with in a different way -- with an attack on the system that produces it.

The immediate response, of course, has to be taking care of casualties and restoring some sort of normal life. We must get back to work almost immediately, to show that our life cannot be disrupted. And we should henceforth show more sympathy for people who are daily exposed to this kind of attack, whom we keep telling to be very measured in their individual responses.

But then the government should be charged with a systematic response that, one hopes, will end the way that the attack on Pearl Harbor ended -- with the destruction of the system that is responsible for it. That system is a network of terrorist organizations sheltered in capitals of certain countries. In many cases we do not penalize those countries for sheltering the organizations; in other cases, we maintain something close to normal relations with them.

It is hard to say at this point what should be done in detail. If a week ago I had been asked whether such a coordinated attack as yesterday's was possible, I, no more than most people, would have thought so, so nothing I say is meant as a criticism. But until now we have been trying to do this as a police matter, and now it has to be done in a different way.

Of course there should be some act of retaliation, and I would certainly support it, but it cannot be the end of the process and should not even be the principal part of it. The principal part has to be to get the terrorist system on the run, and by the terrorist system I mean those parts of it that are organized on a global basis and can operate by synchronized means.

We do not yet know whether Osama bin Laden did this, although it appears to have the earmarks of a bin Laden-type operation. But any government that shelters groups capable of this kind of attack, whether or not they can be shown to have been involved in this attack, must pay an exorbitant price.

The question is not so much what kind of blow we can deliver this week or next. And the response, since our own security was threatened, cannot be made dependent on consensus, though this is an issue on which we and our allies must find a cooperative means of resistance that is not simply the lowest common denominator.

It is something we should do calmly, carefully and inexorably.

The writer is a former secretary of state.

© 2001 The Washington Post Company



To: Voltaire who wrote (41740)9/15/2001 2:29:34 PM
From: stomper  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 65232
 
I believe that is exactly what will happen

No way, V. It would have been done by now. This coalition crap virtually ensures that the nuclear option at this point in time is out of the question.

-dave



To: Voltaire who wrote (41740)9/15/2001 5:27:45 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 65232
 
Long but interesting:

DAY OF INFAMY 2001
Netanyahu on defeating terrorism
Former Israeli leader: Islamic militants will use nukes if they possibly
can

In an interview with Brit Hume on the Fox News Channel Wednesday, former
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu explained what will be
required of the United States to effectively counter the threat of
further Islamic terrorist attacks on the American mainland.

@ 2001 Fox News Channel
HUME: Many of us have been wondering how these terrorist attacks could
have been planned and implemented without any warning. Well, former
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu predicted something very close
to this could happen in his 1995 book, "Fighting Terrorism," subtitled
"How Democracies Can Defeat Domestic and International Terrorists." He
wrote of the terrorist networks – quote – "Such groups nullify, in
large measure, the need to have air power or intercontinental missiles
as delivery systems. For an Islamic nuclear payload, they will be the
delivery system. In the worst of such scenarios," he added, "the
consequences could not be a car bomb, but a nuclear bomb in the basement
of the World Trade Center." Benjamin Netanyahu joins us now live from
Jerusalem. Mr. Netanyahu, thank you very much for joining us. Obviously,
this was not a nuclear bomb in the basement, but it destroyed the World
Trade Center just as certainly as if it were. Give us, if you will, your
thoughts about these terrorist networks … how the United States should
regard them and what kind of action the United States should take?
NETANYAHU: Well, I think first that I have to say that, if any people in
the world can identify with the horror and grief of the people of the
United States, it's the people of Israel. We've been on the frontline
fighting this terrorism for many years. But now the forces of militant
Islamic terror have struck in the heart of the free world. And that's
precisely what we have here. We have here a battle between the forces of
freedom and the forces of tyranny, between the forces of democracy and
the forces of terrorism. It is not accidental. Arafat can shed crocodile
tears and donate his blood. He's been shedding innocent blood –
including innocent American blood – for decades. And he's been
sponsoring these kindergarten suicide bombers.
HUME: You don't think Yasser Arafat is behind these attacks, do you?
NETANYAHU: I think what we have – and you alluded to this – is a
network of terror. There is an empire of terror. There are chiefdoms.
Arafat has his own chiefdoms. Bin Laden has his own chiefdom. The
Hezbollah in Lebanon have their chiefdom. There is Hamas and Islamic
Jihad working under Arafat's chiefdom. And they enjoy the support and
sponsorship in close cooperation with such sovereign states as Iraq and
Iran, havens in Afghanistan and other Middle Eastern regimes. They work
together, both in material support and of course political support. We
saw that in Durban the other day. I think that what is important is
this: Bin Laden or whoever committed this is not floating in the air. He
comes back to the Middle East. He is not suspended in space. He comes
back to the territory of this terror empire. So I think what is required
right now is for the United States not merely to seek out the specific
perpetrator here, but to go and dismantle the entire evil empire of
terrorism, because, if we don't, what I wrote in 1995, while it didn't
come to fruition in precisely the way – they didn't plant a nuclear
bomb in the twin towers – they used a 350-ton conventional bomb. But
these regimes that are part of this terror network are developing now
nuclear weapons. If we don't dismantle this terror network in time, the
regimes and the organizations that have absolutely no inhibition in
destroying the United States and its allies. Then what we will see is
that one day their mad fantasy will bring about not tens of thousands or
even 20,000 victims in the United States, but hundreds of thousands or
millions. They are after our civilization. We must summon the forces of
civilization and the force and the power to act against them now, when
we have the power and when we still have the time to do so.
HUME: Mr. Netanyahu, there will be those who will say, that, well, of
course Benjamin Netanyahu will react that way, because, after all, it is
Israel that is really at the heart, and America's support of Israel that
is really the cause of all this. He and other Israelis will be worried
that America might withdraw its support for Israel, so of course he will
portray this as a war that is a war on the United States. How do you
react to that argument?
NETANYAHU: Well, that's a common misperception. These militant Islamics
don't hate America because of Israel. It's the other way around. They
hate Israel because of America. They see us – by the way, correctly
– as an outpost of common values, our common values of freedom. They
hate that freedom. They hate our way of life. They hate our respect for
individual rights, our ideas of free choice, our free society, our free
press. They think all of that is Satanic. It has to be disposed of. They
call you the big Satan. We're only the little Satan. Now, they could
destroy the little Satan, but it doesn't get the world dominion that
they want. They want to destroy America in their mad fantasies, or at
the very least, to bring it to its knees. That's why they are going to
attack you again and again and again. And mind you, have no mistake
about it. Can you doubt for a second, anyone that is hearing this right
now, that if they had a nuclear bomb, they would drop it? Well, they are
working and developing it. And what we have to do is, we've just
received, all of us, a hellish wake-up call, a wake-up call from Hell.
It's an enormous price to pay for such a wake-up call. And there is a
terrible tragedy here. I cannot tell you – I probably have some
friends there. All of us, without friends, we still see that these are
people who are part of us. But we must know that something must come out
of this. We must understand that if we do not act now, if we do not say
that terror is beyond the pale, it is a crime against humanity, we will
not only go against the terrorists themselves, but against any regime
that gives them safe haven, that harbors them, precisely what we must
do. We must put it beyond the pale and act very resolutely to dismantle
the regimes and dismantle their deadly weapons before it is too late.
The terrorists today have the will to destroy us, but they don't have
the power. We have the power to eradicate them, but we must now show
that we have the will. This is a test of time. And, you know, when I see
the rejoicing, the dancing on the roofs in Gaza and Ramallah and the
other Palestinian areas, and the dancing on the roofs in Baghdad and
Beirut, then I know where these people are. But I also know that the
people who grieve in Israel and in Britain and in Madrid and throughout
Western Europe and in other parts of the world that are grieving now
with the United States, I know that there is a coalition that can be
summoned just as it was 50 years ago to defeat another fanatic ideology,
Nazism. And it's time that the United States act. It will act, I have no
doubt. I have confidence in the leadership of the United States. I have
confidence in the people of the United States. And we all stand
together. And we will win this together.
HUME: Mr. Netanyahu, let me just ask you this question. What kind of
life, what kind of footing, what sort of atmosphere needs to be created
in the United States to bring about the kind of action you're talking
about? Despite this, I think many Americans think we are basically at
peace in the world and that life needs to be restored to normal. What
does life have to be like? And what kind of effort are you talking
about, on what scale?
NETANYAHU: I think the scale is less than the one that I just talked
about, because the forces of terror do not have something even
approaching the power that Nazi Germany had. They have the same mad
designs. So what is required is a military and political effort to
galvanize the entire democracies. You have shown in various recent
conflicts in the last decade, whether in the Balkans or in the Middle
East and elsewhere, that you have the wherewithal, you have enormous,
enormous military power. And what you have to understand is that you
would now have enormous backing and goodwill both in the United States
itself and its well-wishers and allies around the world. I think it can
be done. I think, specifically, how one does it is not, I think, the
domain of this conversation. I'm sure the leaders of the United States
are thinking very carefully about it. I would say that, though, that we
would be remiss if we do not dismantle the terrorist centers right now,
because if we leave them around, they will come back. And they will come
back with greater power. They typically misunderstand and
underappreciate the resolve of free societies. But amid the smoking
ruins of the twin towers, you could see the silhouette of the Statue of
Liberty holding that torch of liberty very proudly and very high. It's
that flame of liberty that these people want to extinguish. But it is
the United States holding that torch with its allies who can wipe out
these terrorists. And we must do nothing short of it. We must wipe them
out or they will wipe us out.



To: Voltaire who wrote (41740)9/15/2001 5:40:15 PM
From: BirdDog  Respond to of 65232
 
...IN THE MOUNTAINS OF AFGANISTAN...

I agree with you. Most these suggestions are unproductive emotional outbursts. They just aren't effective. Need definite SMALL tactical nukes. We have the technology to find him. Once found, simply do as you said. Also make sure the wind is blowing west. We can't have a small radioactive cloud comming over Pakistan after they have hosted us.
The mountains of Afghanistan are just too tough for conventional warfare...just go in and win.... check mate... simple..done...overwith...
Then kick the Taliban's butt for helping him...
Then insist the Saudi's arrest the businessmen who supported him...
Then proceed to the next supporters of terrorism...

BirdDog



To: Voltaire who wrote (41740)9/15/2001 10:01:17 PM
From: SOROS  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 65232
 
Ah, some common sense. I think you are correct in what should be done, but we shall see if it is indeed. I, personally, believe we are extremely close to what the Bible calls the end-times. If so, I'm not sure where America is???? Also, if so, it really matters not what America does, the prophecies will be fulfilled regardless. America, beginning in the 1960's, and capped-off with the crowning reign of Clinton and the condoning of so many things by the American people in the name of greed, has spit upon the ideals and religious beliefs that framed the nation. I fear that what has been sowed will reap a bitter pill to swallow. America better shout repent BEFORE shouting revenge. Look at this photo if you have not seen it. Very eerie.

Message 16358507



To: Voltaire who wrote (41740)9/16/2001 8:31:10 AM
From: horsegirl48  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 65232
 
I knew you'd come back, :0)
The only problem I see with your scenerio is there is so many more of them out there hiding, what about Iran, and the other countries that give these people hiding places?? Nuk them all? If we do that wont Israel be affected in some negative way, from all the fumes it will have to breath. The world is finally seeing what Israel has endured all these years. I think the hardest part of it all is that they live in our backyard,what do we about them?? This is a sad week fer sure, and I await to see what can be done to get this vermin, and hope beyond hope I will remain alive to see what the brave new world will bring



To: Voltaire who wrote (41740)9/16/2001 5:02:18 PM
From: Jim Willie CB  Read Replies (9) | Respond to of 65232
 
a showcase nuke is not the answer... Pakistan is downwind
we will see many measures in response
most will be so ineffective as to be funny
some will take BigBrother to new levels, limiting freedom and liberties

I watch with an eye constantly on Biblical Prophesy, the big picture
Jews hate to hear that, too bad
the Second Coming in my humble opinion will be the End of our World
read a few posts about making support of terrorism tantamount to economic suicide
this will be a major working theme, but will have unfortunate consequences
Prophesy details how individual ID# will be essential for any commerce
this will be developed in many ways in future years
technological advances will enable this
not only with fast and comprehensive networking, but personal DNA identification
outlaws will include those who fail to bow down
eventually this will be abused by an emerging European leader
heck, that could take another 2 or 3 decades
but the Prophesied accleration of events has me worried the most

you will know the hour is late when a Euro leader appears to come back from the dead
a head wound during apparently successful assassination attempt, but a miraculous recovery

in 1980 when I read for days about prophesies, I thought the hour was late
the awakening of Persia was the recent realized prophesied event
but 20 years passed, and I learned how a decade is like a week in Biblical time flow
in the 1950's some thought with the new Israel that the end was near
we are clearly within the End Times though
they were defined loosely with many examples stated clearly
"multitudes of people will occupy all corners of the earth
(enough for all to hear of the Gospel)
many sicknesses will be overcome
people will live older, until their bodies become frail
travel will become very easy across lands
communication will also become easy across lands"
yes, End Times
until we have the Star Trek matter transmission and universal communicator,
maybe I should not worry too much

Tom, plenty of measures short of a showcase nuclear detonation are at our avail
not only available, but can and will be effective
a nuke would galvanize all the Arab and Islam world against us
we must walk a tightrope, attacking Islamic terrorists while not angering peaceloving Moslems
this was the central message from my Turkish Moslem colleague (what a looker)
so far we are succeeding
but already hate crimes have begun in the USA, on isolated basis

I believe use of nukes is merely the kneejerk call by those will diminutive genetalia
sure it would succeed in scaring the world and getting their attention
but the cost would be dear and we would have traveled down a path with no return
couldnt resist, Crackerman

I aint replying to everyone who responded to my last message, too many
this is a time for reflection on what is important in this world
a major challenge will be to contain this conflict
China and Russia will play a key role, at present unclear now

Pakistan is saying and doing all the right things now
they are using their influence over the Talibans in Afgany
I predict the entire country of Pakistan will eventually be ripped by civil war
Uncle Ben Laden has warned any nation that threatens his gang of dangerous thugs

Saudi Arabia and the OPEC nations have gauranteed adequate oil supply
this will be important if and when we must counter price spikes
I predict King Fahd will be assassinated very soon
and the great fear of Saudi oil and wealth in Islamic Fundamentalist hands turns a new page
this would free up western leaders into planning to install a puppet government in Saudi

Iran has closed its border with Afgany
they dont want tens of 1000's of refugees
a huge opportunity for Bush and US leaders to court the new Iran
not only is Khomeini dead, but Mullah influence leadership and support is not strong
these guys are also walking a fine line
they may have hosted an Al Fitah conference in February to bless the WTC bombing plans

I think all hell will break loose before summer 2002
it will be pushed by support of US militarily
but also by support of our efforts to isolate terrorists financially
reprisal against Switzerland is likely soon
I just heard bank accounts are frozen in the US and Switzerland belonging to Al Fitah members
(pardon the spelling, but Benny Laden's gang, translated "The Base")

Tom, tempted to bid on the World Trade Tower renovation ???
how about starting it off at a nice clean $3 billion ???
that includes cleanup and rebuild, with three symmetric but smaller towers
/ Jim



To: Voltaire who wrote (41740)9/16/2001 11:09:58 PM
From: Dave Pestle  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 65232
 
Small tactical nuclear attack? That's as remote as
no attack at all. No nuclear attack can be "small"
The environmental and political fallout could be devastating.
We would lose all support abroad and a great deal here.
The only justification for such an attack would be in retaliation
for a nuclear attack against the U.S.



To: Voltaire who wrote (41740)9/17/2001 3:04:10 AM
From: elpolvo  Respond to of 65232
 
voltage-

Still amazed at what I am hearing from most.

couldn't agree more.

yer fren,

-polvie



To: Voltaire who wrote (41740)9/17/2001 12:22:52 PM
From: No Mo Mo  Respond to of 65232
 
"Deliver a message to all supporting countries with the detonation of a SMALL Tactical Nuclear weapon IN THE MOUNTAINS OF AFGANISTAN."

With all due respect, Tom, you propose to fight like you trade stocks. A nuclear detonation will not earn the US or the Western world a "five bagger" of security. Just as there is more than one person...more than one group in this world who want to harm the people and interests of the US, THERE IS MORE THAN ONE ANSWER.

Tom, WE HAVE BEEN AT WAR. That's what Capitalism is: competition for resources. This conflict has been and will continue to be a protracted process. It is now obvious that our technology can no longer shield us from facing hate. We will now have to do something Americans have not had to for a long time: sacrifice. We will have to sacrifice the tranquility we've come to expect as normal and God given. We, Tom, will have to be AWARE. At all times and for any threats, we will have to be aware.

-Darin

p.s. I can't tell you how happy I am to have your voice back at this time. Thanks for coming back.



To: Voltaire who wrote (41740)9/17/2001 2:22:26 PM
From: DiB  Respond to of 65232
 
V,
nuclear stuff will never happen - too close to China and Russia. Then you'll have opposition inside NATO...
and how would you deal with all the groups under this umbrella in Egypt, Algeria, Saudi, Philipines, France, Libia, etc...?

You will have to rely on CIA, FBI, and National Security during this war. REALISTICALLY.

JMHO.