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To: elmatador who wrote (9442)	9/16/2001 2:49:16 AM
From: Mark Adams	Respond to of 74559

If the Muslin guys had a political leadership interested in develop those countries, the young guys would be busy buying houses, making babies, buying stereos and wide screen TV. Or discuss the market here, like us. This is very true- it's not the people that are the problem, it's the leadership of those people that instill beliefs which are not prone to encourage survival. Tricky, though, once a young mind is formed, it may be difficult to get that mind to understand things from other points of view. A pristine mind is a beautiful thing, hence our appreciation for the innocence of the young. You mention regarding the use of religion in rhetoric. Bush shouldn't censure himself if a christian comment represents how he truly feels or sees an issue. It's only that some of us consider the possibility of the use of key comments as a tool of manipulation of the public at large that causes concern, IMO. As far as the geopolitic of the situation, I'm afraid I'm one of the ignorant. Despite having travelled outside the US. I understand how trends are effecting the viability of the nation state in general, and specific nations and peoples in particular. To date, I haven't bothered truly understanding the historys and cultures. It didn't seem relevant (though it was) while I was scrambling to be a good employee and keep my life on track. Our future should be a place where past differences and natural resources of a particular place are not a barrior to future success. Witness the creation of of US and Euro call centers in India, helping that country move forward.

To: elmatador who wrote (9442)	9/16/2001 3:05:06 AM
From: LLCF	Respond to of 74559

Well said. Great post IMO. DAK

To: elmatador who wrote (9442)	9/16/2001 1:51:26 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 74559

Re: religious overtones. First, DJ was right when he said we belong to a Judaeo-Greco-Christian culture. The early Christian Church Fathers were heavily influenced by Aristotle and Plato, and there is very little distinction drawn by Christians against Judaeism as a religion and Christianity. It's not seamless, but the three traditions are well-integrated, especially after the Enlightenment, when the ideals of religion were freed from religion and made secular. Whether you belong in the Red Zone and espouse the ideals as part of your morals, or belong in the Blue Zone, and espouse the ideals as part of your ethics, it's the same ideals. Personal freedom, personal accountability, free will, respect for the freedom of others, tolerance, duty. Most of the leaders of the US government belong to fundamentalist Christian churches and/or are "born again" Christians and/or are deeply religious. They are asking the mothers and the fathers of the men and women in the military to accept the fact that their children will be killed in battle defending us. They are asking the men and women in the military to sacrifice their lives for us. So playing on the religious themes taps deep roots in the devout. I don't know if this is something that Europeans and other Westerners have in common with us, but there is a deeply held belief in the US of a mystical duty to hold the line against the nations of Islam. We don't talk about it in public, it's spread by word of mouth. I have been told, for years, by people that some day we would be called on, just as the French were called on at the Battle of Roncevalles, just as the Austrians and their allies were called on at the Battle of Vienna. We eat croissants to commemorate the victory in Vienna, but you already knew that. And don't forget the religious significance of the plains of Armageddon, aka Meggido. The last great war on this planet will be fought in the valley of Jezreel and the plains of Armageddon, according to scripture.

To: elmatador who wrote (9442)	9/16/2001 10:15:06 PM
From: SouthFloridaGuy	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

<<If the Muslin guys had a political leadership interested in develop those countries, the young guys would be busy buying houses, making babies, buying stereos and wide screen TV. Or discuss the market here, like us.>> WRONG. Then they wouldn't be good Muslims, just like most Americans are not good Christians (strictly speaking). So in reality the problems do lie with Islam itself and the only way to fix them will be to have Muslims make their faith secondary to anything else WHICH is inherently against Islam and "submission" to Allah. It's truly a vicious circle...