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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: SirRealist who wrote (1683)	9/28/2001 10:39:53 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (7) \| Respond to of 281500

<Many times pacifists have been imprisoned in times of war. Knowing this may happen, some choose to maintain their beliefs. Imagine what happens in the dens of wolves that our prisons are, when known pacifists share cells with truly evil, violent prisoners.... choosing pacifism with that known result is not cowardice, but great moral courage> My father's cousin, Ormond Burton, who was decorated for WWI action was gaoled in WWII for speaking out against war. So much for freedom! He was told by a policeman that if he started speaking, he would be arrested. He said "Ladies and gentlemen..." and was arrested for saying Ladies and Gentlemen... He was not inciting riot, insurrection or violence. He was arguing against taking part in WWII and arguing for pacifism. My father disagreed and volunteered to travel as far from home as possible to fight Nazis for 4 years, because "Hitler had to be stopped". He left home a full year before the USA deigned to join the crusade against Nazism and the horror of Japanese occupation - the USA has not 'saved the world' as is often claimed, they save their own bacon. My father didn't think ill of his war-hero pacifist cousin [who was headmaster of Wellington College so wasn't some ill-educated pacifist wacko]. Of course, gaoling WWI heroes, even in time of war, wasn't particularly pleasing for the government [it's a bit like sending Sakharov to the gulag]. When they let him out, begging him to please stop with the speeches, he would argue again against the war and they'd cart him away again. People who attack pacifists are the scum. The moronic dregs of society attack Sikhs because they look kinda brown and have a nappy on their head. Give me a pacifist any day in preference to that sort of thug. If they are so tough, they should be in the front line. Freedom includes the freedom to be a pacifist. If a state conscripts somebody, then freedom no longer exists. Mqurice

To: SirRealist who wrote (1683)	9/29/2001 12:35:36 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

New Zealand pacifists: nzhistory.net.nz Burton, Ormond Edward Teacher, soldier, war historian, pacifist, Methodist clergyman, writer. Incidentally, I believe there are right now some Kiwi SAS soldiers in Afghanistan [in company with some British]. I imagine they are not pacifists. Gee, Google is really smart. I thought I'd do a search and found things I didn't know. Here's my Dad's cuzzy-bro, Ormond [Michael Hardie Boys was the Kiwi Governor General in 1996]. google.com It seems some people who like to think they are really manly like to attack pacifists. They could try grandmothers and kick crutches out from cripples too. The WTC attackers were called faceless cowards. I would call Bean Laden heroic compared with the cowards who attack pacifists. Laden could have hung out in the lap of luxury in Saudi Arabia instead of spending a couple of decades on the warpath in Afghanistan [and elsewhere]. My Dad's cousin was prosecuted for speaking in public about his beliefs and was physically attacked by cowards brave enough to assault a pacifist. Then, the court was cowardly enough to consider him the criminal for being assaulted for expressing his ideas. The cowardly Methodist Church expelled him. Plus ca change, Mqurice