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Pastimes : Understanding Islam -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: uu who wrote (1)9/30/2001 9:01:18 AM
From: c.horn  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 2926
 
I've been doing some research onto the Qur'an online..

hti.umich.edu

Do some simple searches with words like kill and unbelievers. It's amazing what some of the passages say. I don't think I've read anywhere in the Bible where it says to slay people just because they don't believe in Jesus. I think it's just the opposite. But I'm no theologian..<g>

2.90] Evil is that for which they have sold their souls-- that they should deny what Allah has revealed, out of envy that Allah should send down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He pleases; so they have made themselves deserving of wrath upon wrath, and there is a disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers.

2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

[2.254] O you who believe! spend out of what We have given you before the day comes in which there is no bargaining, neither any friendship nor intercession, and the unbelievers-- they are the unjust.


These are just a few out of many I've found.. They all say basically the same thing.



To: uu who wrote (1)9/30/2001 2:54:22 PM
From: RON BL  Respond to of 2926
 
Civilization Envy
On Muslims, Israel, and McDonald’s.

nationalreview.com
September 28, 2001 4:15 p.m.


omeone once noted that a "gaffe" in Washington is when a politician accidentally tells the truth. Thanks to globalization, this is a worldwide phenomenon.

A Reuters story this morning begins, "Muslims around the world today demanded an apology from Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and the European Union recoiled with horror after the Italian asserted that Western Civilization was superior to Islam."

The Arab League demanded an apology or an explicit denial that the Italian could have even said such a thing. The European Union, led by Belgium (stop laughing), acted as if someone had used his fingers to eat caviar. "I can hardly believe Mr. Berlusconi made such remarks," gasped Guy Verhofstadt, the Belgian prime minister.

Mr. Berlusconi told reporters in Berlin, "We should be conscious of the superiority of our civilization, which consists of a value system that has given people widespread prosperity in those countries that embrace it, and guarantees respect for human rights and religion."

"This respect certainly does not exist in Islamic countries," he asserted.

While critics have called his remarks "unacceptable," "barbaric," "silly," and — of course — "racist," I am at a loss to find a single untrue word in his remarks (meanwhile, how his comments can be "racist" is beyond me, since all "races" can be found within the Islamic world).

Now of course, this hasn't always been so. There was a time when the Muslim world was out in front in the race for human advancement, and there was an even longer period when the leader in that race was too close to call between the Islamic, European, and Chinese civilizations. But for right now, and for the foreseeable future, members and fans of Western Civilization have every right to wave the big foam "We're Number 1" finger as high as we want.

There's not a single category of enlightened governance in which the West broadly speaking isn't superior to the Islamic world — again, broadly speaking. Religious freedom, social mobility, and tolerance, the guarantee of rights and liberties in law, prosperity — you name it, and we beat the robes off them (though in family cohesion, they probably have the edge on us).

To disagree with this assessment would require us to throw out the very standards by which we judge our own society's shortcomings. For example, you can't say (as Jesse Jackson does all of the time) that the United States is racist or authoritarian or a police-state, and hold that Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, et al., aren't far worse, without being intellectually dishonest. You can't say that it's a crime that America "lets" so many of its people live in poverty, and then think that Saddam Hussein, with his dozens of palaces, is in some way a more enlightened leader. The same holds even for our "allies" Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

Even in the historical arena, the argument is not so cut-and-dried as the anti-Westerners would have us believe. After all, the Arabs are just as culpable for their participation in the slave trade as the West. What makes the West unique was not our involvement in slavery, but our insistence upon ending the institution, both at home and abroad.

Envious Islam

No, I'm beginning to believe that the central source of animus from the Arab world is, quite simply, envy.

Indeed, I've been reading a lot of books and articles about the Middle East lately (what? I do research sometimes), and I'm coming to the conclusion that this really doesn't have much to do with Israel after all. At first, like everybody else, I could hardly avoid the conclusion that the World Trade Center was related in some significant way to Israel. I never agreed with the folks who are always looking to peg any of these sorts of things on our support of Israel, but it seemed naïve to think that the Jewish state didn't have something to do with it (even though bin Laden's biggest gripe is the presence of our "crusader" armies on the Arabian peninsula — and they aren't there because of Israel, they're there to protect the flow of oil from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia).

Of course, even if the attack did result from our support for Israel, I wouldn't have agreed with those who say September 11th proves we should abandon Israel. After all, you can make enemies by having the right policies just as easily as you can from having the wrong ones — just ask all the cops who are hated just for being cops. We supported Afghani freedom fighters in order to defeat the Soviet Empire, and just because the Taliban is a harsh unintended consequence of that support, doesn't mean we should have held the door open for Soviet expansionism. Does it?

Bernard Lewis, perhaps the greatest living English-language historian of the Middle East, wrote a brilliant essay eleven years ago in the Atlantic entitled "The Roots of Muslim Rage." It is the best short piece I've found on this subject to date, and I think anyone interested in this topic should read it (thanks to Andrew Sullivan for calling it to my attention).

Lewis shows that while Israel is obviously unpopular in the Arab world, it may not be for the reasons so many knee-jerk Israel foes believe. Consider that when the Soviet Union was a bigger supporter of Israel than the U.S., the Arab world didn't turn their enmity upon the Russians for it. Nor did they praise America when we stood aloof from Israel's plight. The United States has no imperialist or colonial record that even compares to Britain's, France's, or Germany's, and yet we are denounced for our "imperialism" more than any other country. Indeed, the Russians ruled millions of Muslims, while the U.S. ruled virtually none. And yet the United States remains the bad guy above all others. Lewis suggests, with professional restraint, that this is because the Muslim world is jealous and resentful. Pure and simple.

Islamic culture, politics, and religion — which are far more conjoined than they are in the West — cannot reconcile with the fact that the West, led by America, is the lead dog on the sled of humanity. Israel may serve as a painful reminder of this superiority, but they will find something else to gripe about no matter what you do.

The Islamic world has a self-esteem problem.

Lewis gives a wonderful example. In 1979, a group of Muslim dissidents seized the Great Mosque in Mecca — "an event in which there was no American involvement whatsoever," Lewis writes — and an angry crowd in Islamabad, Pakistan, attacked and burned the American embassy in response.

This is the sort of thing individuals and even whole societies do when they feel they aren't getting the respect they deserve. Personally, it reminds me of our domestic race-mongers who are convinced that every American action or event has to do with race. It's an attempt to elevate your own status by picking an "opponent" of greater stature — even if that "opponent" doesn't spend a minute out of his year thinking about you. The deeper your sense of victimhood, and the more unfair the world is to you, the greater your claim to moral superiority.

Indeed, after September 11, claims to social martyrdom were invoked by Arab-American activists far more quickly than any denunciations of the assault. In that corner of the national conversation, the shrieks of outrage about discrimination against Muslims came fast and furious, while the fatwas against mass murder remained in their holsters.

But this attitude also reminds me, oddly enough, of the global assault on McDonald's, about which I've written a bunch. Around the world, McDonald's is attacked for all sorts of bizarre reasons, including ones that don't technically qualify as "anti-American." Depending where you go, Mickey D's haters may invoke the environment or animal rights, economics or religion. Indeed, protestors often prefer attacking McDonald's to attacking the local American Embassy.

While ideologues of all kinds see McDonald's as an enemy, McDonald's sees them only as potential customers. This conflict of visions alone may explain a lot of the problem. But from a broader perspective, the anger may be explained by the fact that McDonald's is a tangible signal that the world is going in a direction these people don't like. McDonald's is carried on the same wind as consumer culture generally, women's rights, economic freedom, and all sorts of other stuff, good and bad.

But one thing is certain: That wind blows from America. This arouses jealousies, inflates grievances, and fans resentments not based in fact. The problem is that even if you get rid of McDonald's, you do nothing to stop the wind. In this sense, Israel may just be like a giant McDonald's franchise in the Middle East — an infuriating reminder of the fact the Islamic world won't be calling the shots for a long time to come.

In fact, as Lewis argues better than I, this poses a real problem for both sides in the conflict of civilizations. If America is going to be resented for its success no matter what, there isn't much we can or should do to make them like us. All we can do is protect our own interests as best we can. And then wait for them to grow up.

Minor Memos
The decker (as we call the teasers for upcoming material) for this column said I would deal with Bill Maher as well as with the new Star Trek series, Enterprise. Well, like a Castro speech, I went too long again. So, I've posted my syndicated column on Bill Maher here on the site, in part because both www.townhall.com and the print edition of the Washington Times curiously chose not to run it. As for Enterprise, I've decided to write a full review for next week's National Review Weekend.



To: uu who wrote (1)10/1/2001 12:15:58 AM
From: Thomas M.  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 2926
 
I guess the point that is missed by this well respected and educated individual is the whole notion of a holly book advocating, promoting or even discussing the idea of a teaching that a man can beat his wife if she does not obey him to his satsifaction!

Perhaps in the culture or ethnic group which Islam was written for (and by) wife-beating/punishment was more common than in ours. Perhaps these issues were discussed in the Koran to put strict limits on the behavior.

Here is a powerful argument that Islam treats women well, actually better than Judaism and Christianity:

twf.org



To: uu who wrote (1)10/1/2001 2:54:27 AM
From: Bilow  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 2926
 
Hi Addi; All the good books suffer when they are taken from the time that they were written and transported into our modern times. About how to treat women, my reading of the Koran suggest that the quotes are intended to place limits on the punishments available, not to order them.

In English common law, the "rule of thumb" is that you can't beat your wife with a stick thicker than a man's thumb. This was the way of the world quite recently even in the (now) advanced European countries. Any legal document, and almost any religious document delving into these issues is going to look violent to modern eyes. But that does not mean that the most people who hold the Koran (or the Old Testament) to be God's word are violent. This stuff gets reinterpreted constantly, at least among most people, just like the legal system constantly gets reinterpreted. The Koran dates to many hundreds of years ago, what does anyone expect it to say.

The United States Constitution explicitly recognizes the legitimacy of slavery, and yet it is the most powerful legal document ever written, and has changed the world in ways more wonderful than the authors could dared have imagined. In fact, I think it's the US legal system (with its tolerance and rights) that most pisses off the fundamentalists. It would have surprised none of us any more if they had flown a jet liner into the Statue of Liberty. (And despite the much smaller loss of life that would have caused it probably would have pissed us off just as much.)

The other (and it is very major) problem with the site you linked in is that it gives passages outside of their contextual relationship to other passages. For example, the link you gave has the following:

Human Rights:
Islam does not permit freedom of choice regarding religion

"Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day. " Surah 9:29

members.aol.com

Here's modern Koran translations, including the rather important context for the above statement:

[9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.
submission.org

Re: "If any one desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him." Surah 3:85

The full context demonstrates that this is in the hereafter, not in the present: "[3:85] Anyone who accepts other than Submission as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter, he will be with the losers."

Re: "I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips of them.It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah." Surah 8:13-17

The actual quotes make it clear that God is responsible for retribution, and that those who live in peace are accepted by Islam:
"[8:13] This is what they have justly incurred by fighting GOD and His messenger. For those who fight against GOD and His messenger, GOD's retribution is severe.
[8:14] This is to punish the disbelievers; they have incurred the retribution of Hell.
[8:15] O you who believe, if you encounter the disbelievers who have mobilized against you, do not turn back and flee.
[8:16] Anyone who turns back on that day, except to carry out a battle plan, or to join his group, has incurred wrath from GOD, and his abode is Hell; what a miserable destiny!
[8:17] It was not you who killed them; GOD is the One who killed them. It was not you who threw when you threw; GOD is the One who threw. But He thus gives the believers a chance to earn a lot of credit. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
[8:18] Additionally, GOD thus nullifies the schemes of the disbelievers.
[8:19] You sought victory (O disbelievers), and victory did come; it belonged to the believers. If you refrain (from aggression) it would be better for you, but if you return, so will we. Your armies will never help you, no matter how great. For GOD is on the side of the believers.
"
submission.org

Just quoting the nastiest passages from the Koran (or any other document) without quoting the nice stuff is an old technique to discredit. To find out for yourself what the general feeling of the Koran is, read it for yourself, it's not very long. At the very least, look up the context for the (mis)quotes given in the link you provided:
submission.org

-- Carl



To: uu who wrote (1)10/3/2001 9:40:25 PM
From: R.V.M.  Respond to of 2926
 
islaam.com



To: uu who wrote (1)8/2/2005 3:02:40 AM
From: kirby49  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 2926
 
Hey Addi, how did you get unbanned from his thread?

Just a reminder that he bans people for calling him a censor. LOL

Message 17139912

Regards

Bob