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To: Ilaine who wrote (10541)	10/2/2001 12:56:39 PM
From: Terry Maloney	Respond to of 74559

The whole question is, "why do these people hate us so much ..." Message 16442776 It's long, but well worth reading, imo.

To: Ilaine who wrote (10541)	10/2/2001 1:23:33 PM
From: Cogito Ergo Sum	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Hi CB, I can't take much time now as I'm swamped however, I noticed this this AM in the same theme: (not espousing this as my view) nationalpost.com 500 cheer Thobani's critique Jane Taber, with files from Joe Brean National Post, with files from The Canadian Press OTTAWA - A leading voice of feminism in Canada told 500 cheering women at a conference yesterday that U.S. foreign policy is "soaked in blood" and only a fool would fail to examine the power of the United States in the wake of the Sept. 11 terror attacks. Sunera Thobani, a women's studies professor at the University of British Columbia, said the United States is "the most dangerous and powerful global force unleashing horrific levels of violence. "From Chile to El Salvador to Nicaragua to Iraq, the path of U.S. foreign policy is soaked in blood," said Ms. Thobani, a former president of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women. Ottawa contributed $80,000 to the three-day conference. The conference is called Women's Resistance: From Victimization to Criminalization. One of the conference organizers characterized Ms. Thobani as a popular speaker and an important intellectual voice in the country. Ms. Thobani said she felt the pain of the victims of the Sept. 11 attacks, but wondered who is feeling the pain of "the victims of U.S. aggression?" She added: "U.S. foreign policy is soaked in blood. And other countries of the West -- including, shamefully, Canada -- cannot line up fast enough behind it. "But the people, the American nation that Bush is invoking, is a people which is bloodthirsty, vengeful and calling for blood. They don't care whose blood it is, they want blood. And that has to be confronted." The women in the audience -- academics, union members, mental health workers and advocates for female inmates, embraced her anti-American rhetoric, repeatedly interrupting her with cheers and standing ovations. Hedy Fry, the federal Secretary of State for the Status of Women, and Landon Pearson, a Liberal Senator and the daughter-in-law of the late prime minister Lester B. Pearson, sat on the podium with Ms. Thobani. Neither immediately denounced the speech, but neither stood or applauded when Ms. Thobani received a standing ovation. Ms. Pearson could not be reached for comment. Later, Ms. Fry told the House of Commons: "People in this country are allowed to say what they want. I did not support it. I did not applaud it. I got up and left immediately following. I stand in the House right now and say that I condemn the speech." Ms. Fry said she had expected the conference to deal exclusively with the subject of violence against women. John Manley, the Foreign Affairs Minister, told the House: "Mr. Speaker, we have made it repeatedly plain that we view any kind of attempt to create moral equivalency between anyone's policies and what happened on Sept. 11 to be utterly unthinkable, outrageous and indefensible." Joe Clark, the Tory leader, described Ms. Fry as a "continuing running embarrassment" to the government and country. Last spring, Ms. Fry incorrectly said crosses were being burned on the lawns of Prince George, B.C. Mr. Clark said Ms. Fry should have walked away immediately, while Stockwell Day, the Canadian Alliance leader, said: "For a minister of the Crown to sit on that stage and not disavow those remarks [at the time] was equally horrendous." Another speaker at the conference, professor Julie Sudbury, from Mills College in Oakland, Calif., said: "Sept. 11 has created a blank slate for global domination of the Bush agenda of militarism and global capitalism ... He's no longer the Texas hangman. He appears to have become the global hangman." Lee Lakeman, of the Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres, and one of the conference organizers, said she supported Ms. Thobani's remarks. "I can certainly assure you from the floor it was perfectly obvious that the majority of the room wants to call for peace and wants us to have supportive attitudes toward the Third World and the aspirations of the third world," she said, adding she considered the $80,000 donated by the federal government to be inadequate. -------------------------end Quote Unfortunately this is an example of my tax dollars at work promoting extreme views of only one side of the coin. regards Kastel a cute and cuddly Canadian

To: Ilaine who wrote (10541)	10/8/2001 7:24:21 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 74559

<The whole question is, "why do these people hate us so much when we don't even know who they are and care even less, and don't even give a shit about them or their religion or their God-forsaken hellhole of a country? And why the f* do they keep blaming us for their problems? Do we blame them for our problems?"> CB, when rich people pay thugs who torture and steal from swarms of people, those being robbed look upstream to find the source of their agony and anger. I suppose you know that pretty much ALL of Osama's income all his life has come from the USA either via direct commercial activity via his Dad's construction business, or from funding by the CIA [from your taxes which you voted on] during the 1980s and latterly from supporters who get income from oil]. When the rich people say things like you wrote and continue funding their suffering and frustration, the put upon understandably draw the rich person's attention to the problems they are causing [they often use a 4 x 2 or any handy weapon]. There is a millennia and eons long history of the alpha citizens not caring about what effects they have on those at the bottom of the heap [often slaves whose very lives are at the whim of the owners - such as in the USA not all that long ago; heck, even Condoleezza Rice grew up with demands that she accept second-class citizenship] and there is an equally long history of the people at the bottom of the heap eventually sacrificing their lives to resist those at the top of the heap. There was a shipboard mutiny for example by slaves enroute to the USA. Those at the top of the heap never understand why they aren't loved and admired by the filthy scum, whoever they are and we don't even know who they are and couldn't care less who they are or what is happening in their lives and "don't give a shit about them or their religion", at the bottom of the heap, who live in a "God-forsaken hellhole of a country" with weird fatalistic religions and so on. Those low-life seething masses of human flotsam should get the "f*" out of our way while we take the oil which is rightfully ours [or God would have given those who live on top of the oil an SUV to drive]. We are actually being attacked not "by people from one of the few places in the Middle East that doesn't have oil". We are being attacked by people who in fact are from the places which do have oil. The money to fund the attacks is coming from the SUV owners who pay the oil owners who pay the construction companies which are owned by people who pay the attackers. It's all very Karmic. You and I might not like it, but while there is an ignorant, indifferent, rich, aristocratic, top of the heap and the bottom of the heap who are Palestinians in refugee camps who were, I suppose, displaced by the Zionists set up by the USA, Britain and the United Nations [a decidedly undemocratic institution with flimsy moral foundations] in a brand new religiously-based nation, where the Palestinians used to live, I can understand why quite a lot of them choose to die while showing their attitude to their suppression and lack of Enduring Freedom. Which doesn't mean I agree with mass murder by the Palestinians or their supporters [understanding why a crocodile or shark kills doesn't mean agreeing that the crocodile is conducting a moral campaign]. I am simply pointing out one of the reasons that things have happened as they have and why pounding Osama into mush and dirt won't solve a lot of our problems [though it will help as he has obviously adopted mayhem and Jihad as his life's work]. Religious cranks are always dangerous and they will continue to murder and maim even when the United Nations actually does something constructive about sorting out Israel and Palestine [and a lot more besides]. In the USA, extreme Christians murder to defend the right to life of human zygotes. They think that makes sense. The irony escapes them. The irony of your comments has escaped you. The irony of Communist cranks being 'for the proletariat' then setting about exterminating them [and a lot more besides] escapes them too. We are now dealing with the aftermath of the confluence of Capitalism, Communism and Islam in Afghanistan. It's quite a mess to tidy up! "Do we blame them for our problems?" Actually, yes, all too often. If you have any other questions, I'll be glad to give you the answers. I have them all! Rome wasn't built in a day, but we have started construction. Mqurice PS: Yes, I know that "true" Christians and "true" Moslems don't conduct murder, but who gives out the official "Seal of Truth"?