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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: SirRealist who wrote (2372)	10/3/2001 10:38:33 AM
From: Thomas M.	Respond to of 281500

re: Nicaragua My favorite is when people recall our failure to stop Hitler in time and warn that we must not make the same mistake with Daniel Ortega, poised for world conquest. -g- Tom

To: SirRealist who wrote (2372)	10/3/2001 11:05:56 AM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Viewed through jaded glasses, these prison industries could be construed as 'slavery-with-a-morally-justified-excuse'. Some strong words there, and most probably not on topic for this thread... (thus, If you want we can discuss it more in depth offline via PM).. But suffice it to say that drug trafficking, or any other criminal activity like it, will ALWAYS be more profitable than working on an assembly line, or running a network... It's the cost/benefit analysis that has been skewed... Punishments do not fit the crime.... as well as there exists a pernicious psychological belief amongst elements of society that the system has screwed them, so they are entitled to screw the system... I've known many folks who don't fit into traditional minority classifications... They aren't wealthy, and many of them work in some tedious jobs for hourly wages... Yet THEY haven't relied upon drug smuggling, or armed robbery in order to make their living. They live in the SAME system... And many are descendants from ethnic groups who once were considered minorities (Irish, Italian, Polish... etc) Thus, those who make the claim that it's "the system", and not the choices people make sounds slight illogical to me. Opportunity exists for everyone who CHOOSES to seize it. Both of my parents came from "dirt poor" beginnings (literally), never went to college, yet my father was able to prosper to a comfortable status without engaging in illegal activities. Bottom line is that many folks have this "get rich quick" mentality and a complete contempt for the rights of others. They are willing to do what's necessary to obtain that wealth, no matter who it hurts. But that said, YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT that there are OTHERS operating behind the scenes of these operations who should be locked up as well. Unfortunately, they are in that position because they are smart enough to cover their legal tracks better than the lowly street dealer. The British thought we were terrorists because our soldiers hid behind rocks and trees, sniping against their superior forces But we still were engaging their soldiers, not their civilians, as the primary targets. It wasn't until WWII that we saw nations engaging in terror bombing against population centers, including the firebombings of London, Conventry, Berlin, Hamburg, Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki.... But under the terms of "total war", there are no "innocent civilians because they are all engaged in perpetuating the war effort. So if Al- Qaeda has declared total war against the US, and they are using total war logic in targeting their attacks, whoever harbors them becomes their ally, and thus, eligible for reciprocal attacks against their civilian population... N'est pas?? You've hit a lot of points that I can't respond to here... But to give a blanket answer to most of your other points, I'm in total agreement that we should not differentiate between the facilitators, and the soldiers. We clearly have probable cause to believe that some folks had prior knowledge of this event, as indicated by short selling activities in certain sectors. Such knowledge makes them accessories to the fact... We might not be able to justify elimating them as combatants since they may not have been engaged in the planning and execution of this attack, but I'd say we are justified to seize their assets in the US (elsewhere if possible) and blare their names around the world as those who sought to profit by this act. Hawk

To: SirRealist who wrote (2372)	10/3/2001 11:27:53 AM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

My own experience suggests that the war against heroin has been successful, at least in Northern Virginia. I am a lawyer, and while I don't specialize in criminal defense, I have handled quite a few drug cases, but never one for heroin. Lots of marijuana, crack, Ecstasy, and prescription pain killers, never heroin. As for the rest of what you say - my reductionist answer is that you are talking about two things. First, you are troubled by the moral ambiguities of waging war, which is normal, and good, although I don't think most people are troubled by it. Shows you have a conscience. Second, you are troubled by the moral ambiguities of _not_ waging war, which is also good, although I think even fewer are troubled by this. So you not only have a conscience, it's highly developed. I don't have any good answers except to suggest that you find a group of people who like to talk about ethical dilemmas, and discuss it with them. Doctors who take care of dying people have ethical dilemmas, lawyers who represent murderers have ethical dilemmas, I would think that being a soldier presents some of the toughest ethical dilemmas, or maybe being a politician. Sometimes (often) life isn't black or white and ethics are not cut and dried. I think the issues you raise are very germane to a discussion of foreign policy, but my experience on this thread and others is that SI threads are not all that conducive to a nuanced discussion of ethics vis-a-vis foreign policy. People don't seem to be able to agree upon the facts well enough to discuss ethics, and so there is a never-ending round-robin of finger-pointing that leads nowhere. It's hard enough to talk about facts here.

To: SirRealist who wrote (2372)	10/3/2001 11:32:04 AM
From: George Papadopoulos	Respond to of 281500

>As most blowback stories give witness too, we draw the fine line that it's okay to fund resisters of soldiers who we consider hostile to our interests. Yep, blowback in its xxth edition<g> >I don't believe Iran, Vietnam or Nicaragua was ever a threat to our shores, so what interests were we protecting? Oil and business interests, sometimes. Sometimes?<g> >Intended or not, our funds, weapons and training caused many civilians to die... even nuns and priests. Is that terrorism? The affected parties think so unfortunately:( >If we are on a joint mission to combat terrorism, fine. But let's not stop with the front lines with all the pawns of war. Let's go after the masterminds and financiers. And let's not stop in the Middle East. If we do, some jaded folks might think it's still about oil, globalism, exploiting the world's resources (especially the Third World's), and damning the environment, to boot. Jaded folk reply: "You mean this is really about terrorism?<g>" >I'm simply saying, if the war against terrorism is fought aggressively in Afghanistan and a few other Middle East countries, and elsewhere, the battle is lukewarm, (i.e., the IRA), then all the jaded folks - like George <GG> - will be doing the 'told-ya-so' dance. George practicing hiis "told-ya-so dance", live performance in months or a few years when the mother of all oil/gas reserves gets closer to us<g> >And the underclasses in the defeated nations, or in nations with repressive governments that perform like terrorists,and in nations still stuck with active terrorists, will completely miss the point about how wonderful democracy is. Hmm, maybe if our gorernment stopped supporting such "repressive govts that perform like terrorists", maybe the people will get a clue about democracy. but we only support the usual democracy, freedom, human rights crap when it serves our national interests (resources & profits), until a blowback scenario hits us again...:( >I want justice today. But justice is a process. I want the process to endure and grow. And I'll try to aid and encourage it all my life. I want peace today. I want a complete reassessment of our government's foreign policy, especially in the Middle East. I want the people responsible for the attacks brought to justice without opening a Pandora's box and creating more terrorists. I want an annual movie pass for Christmas<g>. I want peace, but, oopps, I read today the budget for defense was approved, $345 billion in a year alone! $345 BILLION IN A YEAR, peace, what's that?<g>