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To: Enigma who wrote (77998)	10/6/2001 9:33:07 AM
From: E. Charters	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 116823

Rarebird does not want any defense for defending Israel. There is no adequate defense for passionate causes. The cool headed view is that the solution lies in what to do and how to do it, about 4 million Palestinians who want to return "home". The Jews will give 10,000 resettlement. It seems to fall a tad short of fairness. Many Arabs have hinted in their altruistic benificent habit, that the whole matter with USA, Israel and Terrorism rests with the King david Hotel, the 1948 boundaries of Palestine and settlement in areas like Hebron and Jerusalem. Somebody should do something about the Palestinian camps. They have been living behind razor wire for 50 years. The trouble is as we found out from the fr. revolution and the Israeli departure from S. lebanon, is that the pressure cooker boils over when you let off the lid. If one gives the Palestinians a homeland then it must be by degrees. All at once will cause them to take too much head and run amok. Being kind with a dog made mad is not easy. The Palestinians are like the Vikings and the Afghanis. They are not one government but 20 restless factions. They have to learn to get any agreement with a State they have to speak with one voice and mean it. The end result of not doing so is worse than if they had resisted with arms by the Geneva convention and got beat which is a given with the 80 billion in military aid that the US has given Israel in the past 20 years. As it stands the Palestinians are locking themselves into endless struggle. If the Jews are to get enough land and the Palestinian Arabs get enough land they will have to carve up bits of Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan. It would behoove these states to do something about it as most of that border land is just desert and they could use peace. Unfortunately nobody trusts the Palestinians as they reneged on an agreement with Jordan before and tried to take it over. There are no good guys. There are no bad guys. Just sad guys. The Palestinians should change their tune. The Jews should too. The US should walk away from the whole mess until the Jews get realistic. There is no justification for taking back Biblical land 2400 years later not matter what the Nazis did to them. The Jews did not like German concentration camps, there is no reason the Palestinians have to like theirs. There is no question that the Iraelis displaced Palestinians aggressively and unfairly since 1948. They said they did it in the interests of their security. That is moot. So did Rome conquer because of border security. What security did it get them? It made it necessary for them to get security. There are no easy answers to these problems that now present themselves. If the Jews had not arrived in 1948 iun numbers, (there were only 30,000 of them there in 1890) we would not have some of these troubles. But we would have the same trouble with Iraq, Iran, and the Saudis. We would still have Islamic revolutions and fundamentalism. We would still have wars between Iraq, Iran and god knows who. And the Palestianians and Lebanese would still be ruled by someone else, not themselves. It is high time the Palestinians woke up and realized this. It is high time the Jews woke up and saw themselves in the cruel mirror of history, and recalled what one of their greatest warriors, Moshe Dayan said many years ago. More than many responsible for the tenuous security of Israel he was in a unique position to know what political forces of the times were and where their eventual resolution lay. He had said that if Israel did not make amends with the Palestinians, they would someday reap the whirlwind. EC<:-}

To: Enigma who wrote (77998)	10/6/2001 10:34:48 AM
From: long-gone	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 116823

But I can't go along with all the dove America haters either! Yes, the US will win, we will kick their butts! I only want to assure we don't tar every Moslem with the same dirty brush because of the crimes of less than 1%. How can anyone dare attempt turn "Zionist" into a dirty word?

To: Enigma who wrote (77998)	10/6/2001 11:53:42 AM
From: Rarebird	Read Replies (9) \| Respond to of 116823

What took place during the Holocaust will never happen again. That I can promise you. Zionism will prevent that. There are many different philosophies in regard to Zionism. To be sure, some are religious in nature. But the vast majority of the Zionist movement in Israel is based on secular and moral considerations. We know that a good part of the World are Jew Haters and a Jewish State is needed as a safe haven for Jews and to defend ourselves against ever increasing acts of anti-semitism. If the World had treated Jews more kindly, a Jewish State would not have been necessary.