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Politics : High Tolerance Plasticity -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Malcolm Winfield who wrote (9265)	10/10/2001 7:16:59 AM
From: Second_Titan	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23153

Re Walking Body Bags - This thread is unraveling a pretty bleak outlook on the situation in the short term. It sounds like the PC feminization of the military has done some serious damage to our capabilities. <<The U.S. military has been greatly politicized in the interest of political correctness over the last decade. Unfortunately, some of this kinder, gentler attitude has crept into the special operations community.>> <<My greatest worry is that our conventional military, less the Marine Corps, had so much emphasis on such training as "Consideration For Others" that the standards and discipline and skill of our conventional forces are more like walking body bags.>> Two other things discussed during my encounter with the Afghani student are also quite chilling. As revealed about the Pakistani General supporting the terrorists, I would not doubt that the UN will have to occupy Pakistan before this is over. Also, my understanding is that there is a whole generation of future martyrs in Pakistan who only seek to die while killing Americans. It seems a vicious contagious cancer has been growing and spreading for some time that will require radical treatment to destroy if the patient is going to survive.

To: Malcolm Winfield who wrote (9265)	10/10/2001 12:36:37 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 23153

Re Col. Hackworth. <<Q. Despite the bravery of our special forces, they took some terrible casualties in Panama and Somalia caused by poor mission planning and failed communications.>> Listening to someone like Hackworth exude what I consider to be special forces bravado always makes me apprehensive. I've seen special forces, unless things have changed, and from listening to Hackworth it seems they haven't, there is almost a fairy tale quality to their training and the mystique that surrounds them. Unfortunately it's a myth. The truth is that all of their training, while valuable, is only the foundation for their real training which comes only when they are deployed and see sustained action. That's when those who "can" survive and learn and those who don't have the luck or the talent get hauled away wounded or worse. For special forces to try to go in and John Wayne it in a place like Afghanistan that is populated with fighters who are battle tested, have probably been on the ground for all of their lives and who can track and instantly recognize non-Afghans on sight, borders on the ludicrous. I've seen the "highly trained" professionals come in and put that training to use. It amazed me that they survived and it was only through luck that they did. They were so off that we didn't want to get close to them because all of their exaggerated techniques failed to incorporate the ones that were the most important for survival; common sense, extreme caution, a respect for the fact that the other guy was just as good, the ability to physically read the ground and that sixth sense that you only get when you've been there long enough to know things intuitively. In the real world when you are fighting seasoned soldiers, it's not guys who run into battle with a sense of invulnerability that are effective. In the real world it's not the fastest runner or the strongest man that's the most effective. In the real world the other guy knows what he is doing and moving one or two inches in the wrong place at the wrong time or getting down just a fraction of a second too slowly means you cease to exist. In the real world of war your brain is your most important asset. I know that there are a few old special forces hands around from past conflicts that know this, unfortunately those most gung ho tend to gravitate to special forces and glorify it, and that John Wayne attitude reinforces itself when the majority think alike. As a country we should be very careful about thinking that we have some kind of super soldier that can go to another country, face seasoned soldiers and be successful. I don't question their willingness or their bravery, I only question the policy of relying on them to carry out a broad mission that they cannot be prepared for. I believe the failure of their missions in Panama and Somalia were because of the inherent flaw reflected in the belief that you can take highly motivated and highly trained young men and put them in a strange land, pit them against seasoned fighters and expect them to do well in the short term. They are just fng's (funny new guys) even if they are fng's with lots of ability and lots of training. Fng's don't grow into old hands overnight, even good ones. The special forces have a role there. If they can move at night and secure intelligence with a good chance of being undetected, if they can secure the help of local guides and if they can find and call in serious firepower on confirmed locations or send intelligence information in, they can be of great service. That means small teams of about three traveling lightly and quietly. It means looking in from a distance. It doesn't mean trying to sneak past Bin Ladin's people with a trench knife and finishing the job by hand. Someone should write a book about the myths of war. It is not about large actions bigger than life, it is not about running through hails of bullets, it's about tiny little moments frozen in time where the smallest things mean you live or die. It's where the other guy shoots straight and when you get hit you just melt into nothing like a puppet with the strings cut. It's not about letting emotions carry you forward, it's about controlling your emotions; fear, anger and panic, and letting your head work clearly so your body can move freely. It's not about heroic people, it's about people doing a job the best they can and forming teams that use the talents of each one to create a stronger whole. It's where real bravery is not in being fearless but rather in being scared to death and still doing what has to be done. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is no easy fix where we can send in super soldiers to surgically remove the bad guys. There is no clean war where the good guys get the job done quickly and heroically. We are doing a necessary thing but we should have no illusions about the cost and the difficulty involved. Ed