Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Technology Stocks : INTEL TRADER -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Berney who wrote (10527)	10/12/2001 7:00:58 AM
From: Jurgen Trautmann	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 11051

USA today (3): Kofi Annan The well understood final interest of USA (and of us ggg) cannot be just to kill some terrorists while for each killed two young ones come out off the ground elsewhere - thus there isn't really a free choice how to "eliminate" them. If you want to achieve this superior target: security, you have to calculate how to avoid the creation of new terrorism. Guess we can distinct those ways: (1) Intelligence The traditional way to eliminate individual enemies with sympathetic backgrounds is loudlessly - anonymously.* The martyr-effect and the production of new anti-power should be quite moderate. However: Like it seems it use to be by far easier to kill fighters for peace from Kennedy to Lennon at home than terrorists elsewhere. Whatsoever: This chance is gambled away again. (2) Justice on a real equal rights base Clearly the best way would be to "bring them to justice" - but in a way that everybody - especially there where young men consider to enter the "carrier" of terrorism - has the impression that those criminals are treated neither worse nor better than every other criminal before or later, doesn't matter where the delinquent comes from and doesn't matter who has been hurt by him. It's the "equal rights" way. I understand that it will be hard especially for USA (not for us ggg) to renounce their for a half centennial exercised "right of the strongest to violate rights of the weaker". Obviously the time has not come so far, but I'm convinced that equal rights as between nations as between individuals is the only lasting working principle. Justice instead revenge - it's not thinkable that a nation that is in war agains another can get accepted as institution of justice: but without acceptance no stop of violence. I'm a great admirer of a great person, citizen of USA: Mr. William Pace. It's hard to believe how patiently and the same time successfully this man fights for a great step ahead. A lot of nations must "jump over their shadows". Will we see a time once when USA takes the leadership in movements for justice, peace and equal rights? The institutions from UN to the International Court are ready to go, most countries have given their agreement for a long while. The world is waiting for a new USA. (3) Justice on a national base Imo this is the way things will run if terrorists can get catch alive. One doesn't need to have a lot of phantasy for the prediction, that rulings of USA-courts don't enjoy special respect f.e. in Saudi-Arabia. So it doesn't matter how fair or not a US court will handle things - he will earn national critic and islamic hate. (4) Self-justice** Guess we have a chance that this tradition must not be continued. However, I've been invited to look at such incredible "movies"... However - if something like this will happen, we created the legend for generations of suicide-killers. * I like to state that imo in a real democratic society no need exists for so called "intelligence services". Crimes including spy and terror can be fighted by police-type structures. This princip could be expanded on international problems with better results and better acceptance than national efforts ever could experience. All other "functions" of "intelligence"-organisations are undermining useful structures of democratic societies. In more egocentric words "to give up parts of it's souvereignty" * If we can involve nations in an international system of justice we have the chance that rulings of such a court can experience respect after a certain while.

To: Berney who wrote (10527)	10/15/2001 8:43:51 AM
From: Jurgen Trautmann	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 11051

Berney, I should finally respond your postings My "USA today" titeled postings were not mentioned to be an answere. You seemed to misunderstand that, doesn't matter. Believe me, Berney, either your press is not that free like you believe or you don't read this free stuff behind the usual propaganda or you're not able to change your mind if information don't match. You really don't know that the Al Qaida used recruting-offices allover the states, still (after Sep 11th) collects money from islamic(!!!) churches in US and that the real head of Al Qaida eventually had a friendly meeting with Mr. George W. Bush after the attack? You really have read nothing from this bunch of military experts worldwide stating that the bombing of Afghanistan is absolutely meaningless action? You have no knowledge about the money-flow from CIA, Saudi-Arabia and Drugs to the Al Qaida, the great support Al Qaida experienced from US services, the coward-role US is playing in Saudi-Arabia just due to this sick oil-greed? You even cannot use your own supervision-station there... Haven't you seen pictures about the demonstrations worldwide, f.e. in London and Berlin, not just enemies of USA, against this meaningless action? What about that the US could not get any support for the use of nukes from their allies? What I've learned from your reactions: Nobody can force another person to "eat" information that he don't want to accept. OTOH: You cannot force me to stop discussing here or elsewhere - at least not peacefully. After "freedom of press" a bit "freedom of talk"? However, this is my last reaction on your political thoughts, Berney, unforcedly ggg. Just these personal remarks yet - about international impacts, individual impacts and financial impacts: This is not an internal matter of USA. Items clearly stop being "internal" with say a Tomahawk-attack anywhere. Nobody has the right to do something outside of his territory without clear international legitimation. Like you said: This matters not an iota on you - but we all have the doubtful pleasure to share as allied nation, G8-member, globalisation-profitors or whatsoever the reactions on every rowdy-politics against "inferior" nations. This attacks are really not an private matter of one single nation or their citizens. NY was not the first terroristical attack out off this corner, any of them have hit Germany long before this first beat inside US. A lot of victims of NY came from foreign countries. Like you could have read here the clear majority of finacial damage comes on insurances in Europe. And however this will end, we all in Europe will have to pay the price too - we still do. Sentences like "it was our buildings that came down and not, as of yet, yours" offend not alone me but every person outside your country who has to suffer terrorism immediately or mediately. Me at least have still payed a lot of money and behind this a greater price you can imagine, former fellow dude. I have every right to discuss this, every right. That was the important point - this last point at last because your statement "it really has nothing to do to with the economic world" is that crucial stupid that nobody ever can top it. Guess even you self will realize immediately that you don't get the Nobelprice for philosophy for that. However, let me expand on exactly that kind of causal chaines you ever like to ignore: - US are far below international standards in the use of technologies for efficient use of energy. - The real or believed need or greed of ressources owned by other nations was and is the one and only real cause why nations afford expensive toys like intelligence-services, armies and diplomacy. From blacks to black gold. - Saudi-Arabia produces about 1/4 of the worlds crude. They are very big investors in US-markets - newly I read: if they drew their money away, US could fall back to a third-world-country. This is why your proud nation cannot attack the true homeland of terrorism. - Also Al Qaida has a lot of ressources especially in US, they drew money first from your CIA, then from your main Oil-supplier Saudi Arabia and finally from the biggest Drug export on earth - you can bet who's the biggest importer. Do you have any doubt, Berney, that they're still invested in US with "fleets", compared to them your proud fleet looks like folded-paper-toys? - We had record-lows caused by the NY-attack, we will get further record-lows after every escalation or every new attack. Just an example: bookings of US-tourists in Germans hotel-chain "Steigenberger" went back for 25%: just one single point, Berney, one single sandcorn on the beach of economical damage. Berney, we all can forget chart-reading, line-drawing and fork-picking for years if your mainchief GWB hasn't lied when he announced years of war. This is all but "OT", this is the center of all that impacts investments, speculation or trading. Of course, like Osama Bin Laden confirmed, we neither would have war nor terrorism if there was peace in Palestina and no foreign forces in Arabia - then we could forget too the reflow of oil-money; they used to handle their power very responsible, by far more integrative and cooperating than powerful players on "our side of the pond" used to, isn't that so? "...it really has nothing to do with the economic world." (TB Sunday, Oct 14, 2001 12:46 AM, for the records)