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Politics : High Tolerance Plasticity -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (9665)	10/17/2001 4:57:48 PM
From: Steeliejim	Respond to of 23153

Thanks Ed. Well done. Jim

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (9665)	10/17/2001 5:58:40 PM
From: Bruce L	Respond to of 23153

Great post Ed. I agree with everything you said, but you and I would probably disagree with the implementation of the principles set out so well. <<"Is Bin Laden ... a criminal mind...that can be removed to restore order or are they a symptom of a culture and a religion and its interaction with the Western culture.">> I don't see "either/or"; I think both can and should be accomplished and as long as we can overthrown the Taliban (with its 13th century thinking) and do so with minimal civilian causalties, I say good riddance. I like they way we are proceeding: using air and some ground troops to help the Northern Alliance to accomplish that. Bruce

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (9665)	10/17/2001 6:09:37 PM
From: JungleInvestor	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 23153

cnyndwllr, excellent thoughts!! (BTW, are you a professional writer?) The U.S. is fortunate to have the right people in high office at this time. I really like the approach our government is taking. Powell's strategy of coalition building is the correct one, as are the "you are either against terrorism or for it" doctrine and the focus on many fronts including financial, diplomatic, intelligence, armed forces. Who would have thought that the U.S. and Pakistan would be working together closely? Pakistan was THE main backer of the Taliban. They now have a new head of intelligence (the ousted head was in with Al Queda/Taliban), and they're providing intelligence (which must be much better than ours in Afghanistan) and air fields. Many countries have joined the coalition and there have been successes in these countries in ferreting out terrorists (e.g., France, Great Britain, Egypt) which the U.S. could not have done alone. Pressure is being applied behind the scenes to get nations such as Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran to join us against terrorism. Efforts are underway to reinitiate the peace process between Israel/Palestine and India/Pakistan. We are becoming closer to Russia and their help in areas such as intelligence will be valuable. As President Bush said this will be a long effort. A methodical all-encompassing approach, the coalition and patience are needed to win. Other important aspects are humanitarian aid, U.S. communications of its side of the story (e.g., through radio transmissions and leaflets) and nation building. The U.S. has already started with nation building by talking to the past king of Afghanistan and representatives of various tribes on establishment of a government after the Taliban fall. A stable government is needed so that a new, more repressive government does not fill the void. My guess is that eventually the anthrax will be traced back to Iraq. When/if this occurs, the coalition partners will be much more likely to support the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. The overthrow of Hussein will also require nation building along with much humanitarian aid. My guess is that coalition approach is infuriating the terrorists because Islamic nations have joined with the U.S. in the fight. This will likely cause the terrorists to attack governments in muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt (there was already an aborted attempt), Syria. These attacks would be the turning point. Lukewarm coalition partners such as Saudi Arabia would become staunch supporters and mete out THEIR justice to the terrorists (which will make kb and myself happy) and confiscate their assets. The point is that to successfully hunt and destroy the terrorists we NEED the coalition partners because they alone can do this most successfully within their own countries. When this occurs, the perspective of the Islamic masses will change from "the U.S. fighting Islam" to "the world fighting terrorism." It's amazing to me that a great general such as Powell, brought up within military ranks, is also such a great statesman!

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (9665)	10/17/2001 6:45:14 PM
From: kodiak_bull	Respond to of 23153

Fast Eddy, As you know, I've never advocated "dropping lots of ordnance" on the M.E. in this situation, or carpetbombing countries or using the big boomer. This is a long war which will be won only on several fronts at once. As for the polls of "moderates" in these countries, I am sure that Hitler's Germany in 1942 and Hirohito's Japan in 1943 would have had even higher numbers; it still didn't make firebombing Deutschland or dropping the Big Bopper on two cities in western Japan the wrong decision. You could have pointed out long litanies of supposed reasons for the Axis powers, but that wouldn't have legitimized them. Ed: "Is the problem one of inevitable conflict or one of deep misunderstandings of cultures? Are there gaps that can be bridged? Are there commonalities that can be highlighted? Can mercy, punishment, forgiveness and respect be achieved together and if so is it wise to pursue that course?" No, Ed, the problem is there is an organized group out there who has taken advantage of their own peoples' unbelievable ignorance and gullibility to justify their own twisted actions and stole 4 airplanes they could never have manufactured in 10 millenia and crashed them into 3 buildings they could never have designed or built and killed 6,000 people whose shoes they weren't qualified to even polish, even the laborers and the temps(hell, especially the laborers and the temps) and who now would like to send a little packet of powder into your infant son and infant daughter's lungs so they can die a terrible death. That, in a nutshell is the problem. And the countries which have housed them and given them shelter have done as much to commit the crimes and the guys who live in caves and haven't had a civilized bath in 4 months. The question is not, how many of their civilians are going to lose their lives and how can we prevent that so we get a good press when this thing is over?, but how do we accomplish the goal of rooting out and destroying this evil, now and afterward, with as few additional American lives as possible. The fact that a true success in this will no doubt, over the long run of history, save millions of Islamic lives (and thousands of our own) is simply a nice outcome. It is the same issue the Allies faced in WWII, good versus evil, and everything in between, Korea, Vietnam, Granada, the Gulf War, is pretty much irrelevant to the issues. Despite our recent 40 year bout with cultural relativism on all levels (Borneo's oral story tellers are just as great artists as Shakespeare, a grass and dung hut is just as valid a work of art as St. Paul's Cathedral), this really is about good and evil. There were those few who thought Hitler had a point of view as well. In the end (actually pretty damn soon) we may have to perform "hurtful" acts which in a perfect world we'd never want to in order to succesfully battle this incredible evil. So, how are your stocks doing today? Kb