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To: elpolvo who wrote (3356)	10/18/2001 1:38:29 PM
From: Poet	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 51702

Wow wow wow. It's a pleasure to read the real elp. I am glad that there are people who feel the way you do about this. It's a relief to see that not everyone in the US is calling for military action. I respect your views very much, as you know, and I'm glad you've made them public. May I ask two questions? First, does the size and character of the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon on September 11th factor in at all? To me, (and obviously this is hypothetical) the sheer degree of loss of life that day makes this "worse" in my mind. Perhaps if it were a truck bomb that took ten or twenty lives, I might be more willing to look for diplomatic measures rather than military ones at this point. Second, does the fact that bin Laden and his followers state that every American is a justifiable target merely because of the country we live in, factor in at all? I'm guessing "no" on your part, but for me, the degree of blind hatred on their part is partly what motivates me to want to strike back militarily. And I agree with many of your points about Bush, particularly the one below: he does not have the vision to see the tremendous opportunity and benefit to our country and to its individual citizens, that a global community will bring. the age of international global community, a global economy and global interdependence are not strong guiding concepts for him Do you (or anyone else here) feel that the chances for the development of a global community have now been rendered impossible in our lifetimes? I'm thinking that they are. Thanks again, elp.

To: elpolvo who wrote (3356)	10/18/2001 2:48:32 PM
From: bonnuss_in_austin	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 51702

How refreshing, el! 'Bout time, IMO. Glad to see you off the fence. ;) bonnuss

To: elpolvo who wrote (3356)	10/18/2001 5:07:52 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 51702

i also thought kingsolver did a wonderful job of expressing her perspective. I thought you did a wonderful job, too. Karen

To: elpolvo who wrote (3356)	10/21/2001 10:36:20 AM
From: Clappy	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 51702

or me, these times are not especially painful, nor do they evoke great personal fear, it is a natural storm blowing across my path. i saw this coming in the first 100 days of the current administration. i saw the tools the president stocked in his cabinet(s). when all your tools are hammers... all your problems begin to look like nails and conversely, when all your problems look like nails, hammers are the first tools you reach for. The nails have been present for much longer than the past 100 days and they would still look like nails today if we were in Gore's tool shop. the current president is not as evolved as is the leading edge of civilization. his worldview is that of earlier cold war days. he missed the opportunity to participate in, and see the ultimate global evolutionary significance of the new information age. he does not have the vision to see the tremendous opportunity and benefit to our country and to its individual citizens, that a global community will bring. the age of international global community, a global economy and global interdependence are not strong guiding concepts for him. How is that? I never thought I would ever be here trying to defend Shrub, but how has he handled this matter incorrectly. How has he hindered the global community? World wide recession seems to have done a better job at that than anything Bush could have done to ruin it. to them it was a powerful opportunity to have their status raised from crazed individual criminals unsupported by any recognized government on the planet, a la ted kazinski or timothy mcveigh, to an internationally recognized organization of religious believers in a holy war against whom they perceive as "the great, evil, satanic, tecnologically advanced but morally bankrupt nations of the world". With Gore leading the way, they certainly would have waited 4-8 more years to implement their action. Patiently waiting for the day for a republican to step in with his "Cold War" mind set. I'm not too sure about that. I'm also not very sure Gore would have thwarted off the threats of attack by appeasing Bin Laden, the other terrorist peoples, and changed the world in a manner that suits the morally bankrupt nations. having seen this coming, i was not unprepared. my hatches are battened, my course is set for the quickest, safest heading until it passes... no fighting into the teeth of the wind, just a hell of a ride for a while until i can set the new course for the ultimate destination. I'm glad the firefighters, cops, and rescue workers didn't feel that way. They saved thousands before allowing themselves to go downstream with the rest of the towers. Not meant as a cheap shot and it certainly does not imply that you would have not done the same. However, how can the President tell the families of these heroes that going into Afghanistan is wrong. Tell them that hunting down the bastards that did this, is wrong. Instead, perhaps it's better that the president tries to ease the anguish of Barbara Kingsolver as she sits in her easy chair in Tucson, Arizona with her newspaper spread across her lap as she sips iced tea, turns the page and looks at the department store sales advertisements or cheap airline ticket deals. She's far removed from the Anthrax spores blowin' in the wind. Probably doesn't know the face of a single person transformed into rubble. Doesn't have to fear her contemporary western motif home may become reduced to ash. Put a little fear in her and I'm not quite certain that she would be ready to wait the long period of time that her dream of a peaceful end to this means, may require. as bob dylan once said, "i don't fight gravity." I'm glad Bob wasn't a fireman. I'm also glad we are not using a broom to bang in those nails. -Clappy