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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (7058)	10/23/2001 2:06:30 PM
From: Seeker of Truth	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

You want some Palestinian leader to say the same things in English as he does in Arabic. You'll wait forever. Let's pull a number out of the air. Let's say 50% of the Palestinian public wants to fight Israel until the Zionists pull out of what is now called Israel completely. How are you going to "sell" a long term peace with Israel unless it is first described in Arabic as a "truce", or words to that effect Then if they like it they may ultimately be reconciled to the transition from truce to peace. So maybe it isn't 50 %, maybe it's 70% or 35%. Anyway it's a significant part of the Palestinian population and a would be leader can't ignore their point of view. Let's remember that they may know relatives of Arabs who have been killed by Israeli(made in USA?) bullets. Whereas they are unlikely to know relatives of any Israeli who has been killed by Arabs. They automatically have an asymmetric view.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (7058)	10/23/2001 2:38:50 PM
From: Machaon	Respond to of 281500

<< ... the Arab-Israeli conflict is really a conflict between western values and Arabs ones. >> The same as our conflict with Al Qaeda and bin laden. The Islamic world is telling us "Sure America is at war, and sure there are thousands dead in the ruble of the World Trade Center, and sure your citizens are dying from biological weapons, and sure the world's economy is going into the toilet, but we must respect the customs of the terrorists during Ramadan. I keep hearing the question, "Who do Muslims hate America"? Well, I'm beginning to not give a damn how they feel about us. It's how we feel about THEM that's important, and remembering how little support we got from the Muslims during these difficult times.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (7058)	10/23/2001 2:48:35 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Thus, I believe the Israelis are rightly concerned that the only manner in which Arafat can perpetuate his power is by the use of conflict with Israel. That is the nature of dictators. They maintain their power by distracting their people from their own economic failures and cast the blame upon some enemy. You're echoing Sharansky's point here. Long-term, I agree with it. But history shows other examples where dictators have decided that peace was in their best interest and have actually made a decision and stuck with it. Sadat is the prime example (& he paid for it). Musharraf also seems to be actually siding with the US, not just giving lip service. In short, it was possible for Arafat to actually make a decision for peace, and it would have been a rational decision for him. Not every dictator talks out of all sides of his mouth and plays both sides against the middle the way Arafat does. If he had not been trying to play moderate while keeping the terrorist option open, he could have concentrated on consolidating the power of the PA, instead of allowing the growth of institutions like Hamas at a suitable distance to preserve deniability. The thing that really shocked me about Arafat was not his terrorism, or his corruption (did you ever read The Stolen Car Peace Process in the Weekly Standard?), but his abject failure to build any of the pieces necessary for a modern state. Everyone who builds power knows you must get people to support you. The best way to do this (aside from rhetoric) when you don't have a state is to provide social services. If you look at the Christian Church in third-century Rome, Tammany ward-heelers in 19th century New York, the Zionists in early 20th century Palestine, they all built networks of social services, and consequently, a power base. So who provides social services in Gaza? Hamas. The millions Arafat got for economic development are in Swiss Bank accounts -- unless you count the money that is building the mansions of his cronies in Gaza and the West Bank.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (7058)	10/24/2001 2:15:15 PM
From: Songwrks	Respond to of 281500

The Israelis, imo and according to the facts I've observed, while not "snow-white", have not deliberately targeted civilians as a matter of national policy. Something that cannot be said of the Palestinians under Arafat...I personally believe a Palestinian state such as Arafat desires is unviable, both economically and politically. It cannot sustain and support itself independently, but requires extensive contacts with Israel both for infrastructure as well as jobs to employ its people. And I don't see this scenario changing for decades. Thus, I believe the Israelis are rightly concerned that the only manner in which Arafat can perpetuate his power is by the use of conflict with Israel. That is the nature of dictators. They maintain their power by distracting their people from their own economic failures and cast the blame upon some enemy. Exactly! ~Jennifer